Pleidiol wyf i'm beth?
Thursday, May 31, 2007

Ydy Cymru'n gwlad yntai'n genedl? Dyna dw i'n gofyn yn fy ngholofn yn Golwg yr wythnos hon.

Ymhlith yr holl drafodaethau clymbleidio rhwng y pleidiau wedi'r etholiad, mae'n debyg fod y mater hwn wedi dod i'r brig. Yn ol pob son, roedd yna gwrthwynebiad egwyddorol yn y Blaid Lafur ac ymysg y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i'r gair 'cenedl' yn nogfen Plaid Cymru. Yn wir, newidiodd y Blaid Lafur yr is-deitl 'Adeiladu Cenedl' yn nogfen Plaid Cymru i 'Gymru Cryfach' yn ei ddogfen ei hun.

Ond beth ar wyneb y ddaear sy’n bod â’r gair 'cenedl'? Wedi’r cyfan, mae’n syniad sydd wedi codi mewn nifer o areithiau amlycaf Gordon Brown.

Dwn i ddim. I fi mae Cymru yn gwlad ac yn genedl. Mae Prydain yn wladwriaeth ac mae Ewrop (ar hyn o bryd) yn gawlach llwyr.
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A topic pinched from my column in Golwg this week...

One of the sticking points in the post-election coalition negotiations was over the alleged nationalist rhetoric in Plaid Cymru's proposals.

Members in both the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats were apparently unhappy with the subtitle 'Building a nation' in Plaid's negotiation document. Indeed, so unacceptable was this offending phrase that Labour had changed it to 'A Stronger Wales' by the time it came back to the Plaid office.

Why?

After all, one of Gordown Brown's favourite soundbites is to talk about the 'Nations and regions of Great Britain', of which Wales is surely one of the former. Is the Unionist/Nationalist split in Cardiff Bay really so infantile as to be quibbling about silly little things like this?

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posted by Blamerbell @ 11:11 am,

22 Comments:

At 11:54 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let's Call it 'The Assembly for the Principality for Wales'.

That should keep the Brits happy!

 
At 12:08 pm, Blogger View from the Glen said...

Obviously the answer is "Yes"!

 
At 12:43 pm, Blogger Cymro said...

Wales is already a devolved nation - nation is a functional word, not some kind of "Nat" rallying cry! Labour need to grow up and dump Hw Lewis off a short pier - the arguments over whether Wales should be autonomous/independent/happy as we are/slaves to the English or any other status you can think of aren't going to be won or lost by the tactical use of a single word.

 
At 12:48 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can someone confirm/correct my assertion that in terms of how people define themselves (nationhood-wise), there are three types in Wales: Welsh Nationalist(see/want Wales as nation state), UK Nationalist(see UK as nation state) and pure Internationalist(see/want no national borders).

 
At 12:51 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is no such thing as a country. We have States (note the capital S), which are collections of territoiral institutions which exist in self-replication. Nations, on the other hand, are organic, self-defined, identity-based 'imagined communities' (I use the word imagined in that it is only through reference to all the other members as a collective, who can not all be known to the average person as individuals, that this community exists). They do different things, although there was an assumption in liberal political philosophy that the state should follow the frontiers of the nation).
What really annoys me is the old 'Wales isn't a country it is a principality' debate. The fact that A is ruled by a King, and B by a Prince and C by a Grand Duke doesn't mean that B or C have any different authoirites than the other: 'Rex in suo regnum imperator est', went the old doctrine: the King is Emporor in his own domain, ergo the Prince is King in his own domain. Perhaps people who insist on this argument will actually do some research into the Holy Roman Empire's structure, or even contemplate that it is only through history and culture we have come to regard Princes as subsurvient to Kings (i.e. the son of a monarch as prince of Wales). After all, the Archduke of Austria kicked many regal asses in his time. Anyway, end of rant

 
At 12:55 pm, Blogger Christopher Glamorgan said...

I suppose one of the things that most other parties object to is the fact that Plaid imply that they would be building a nation from scratch, when that clearly isn't the case.

 
At 1:00 pm, Blogger Unknown said...

I remember one of the most infantile arguments during the early years of the devolution debate was a Labour MP (Donald Anderson?) arguing whether it should be the National Assembly of Wales or the National Assembly for Wales.

I thought Labour had now grown up, but obviously not.

 
At 1:02 pm, Blogger Unknown said...

I suppose one of the things that most other parties object to is the fact that Plaid imply that they would be building a nation from scratch, when that clearly isn't the case.

Says who??

 
At 1:05 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is a significant element of the Labour party and to some extent the other London parties who perceive the words 'nation' or 'national' as nationalistic=facist/racist. This could be seen in a Westminster debate a few years ago, when a few Labour MPs esserted during a debate that Plaid were somehow racist as a result of this perception.

Phrases from senior politicians such as Peter Hain like 'the Balkanisation of Britain' and 'narrow nationalism' do not help and might explain why many in Plaid are so reluctant to work with Labour.

 
At 1:10 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Christopher Glamorgan said...
"I suppose one of the things that most other parties object to is the fact that Plaid imply that they would be building a nation from scratch, when that clearly isn't the case. "

No Christopher Glamorgan. Did you really mean to write and post something so silly?

 
At 1:41 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If that is indeed how people perceive Plaid's wording, then it's important for Plaid to understand this. If the last few weeks has taught us something, it's that we have to understand each other's hang-ups in order to work together, for Wales.

 
At 1:58 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

strange that its Labour and the Lib Dems who have problems with the document being to Nationalistic and not the Conservatives who are Unionist through and through

 
At 2:13 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

That's because the Tories will say anything to anyone to try and get back into Government in Wales, ffs.

 
At 2:19 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Phrases from senior politicians such as Peter Hain like 'the Balkanisation of Britain' and 'narrow nationalism' do not help and might explain why many in Plaid are so reluctant to work with Labour. "

Yes. Labour are champion muck slingers and deliverers of false information. The average Jo Blog would probably not understand it but it doesn't matter to guys like Hain. As long as it saves his bacon. And we all know that.

The media also does not help. It tends to glorify differences instead of playing a more education role. We will eventually get the government we deserve.

 
At 2:56 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

dyma oedd pwnc fy ymchwil i....ti'n neud i fi isio ail edrych arno fo!

 
At 3:08 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

New cabinet:

First Minister Rhodri Morgan

Minister for Health and Social Services Edwina Hart

Minister for Education, Culture and the Welsh Language: Carwyn Jones

Minister for the Economy and Transport Economic development; transport and regeneration: Dr Brian Gibbons

Minister for Sustainability and Rural Development: Jane Davidson

Minister for Social Justice and Public Service Delivery: Andrew Davies

Minister for Budget and Business: Jane Hutt

In addition to the seven Cabinet posts above, the First Minister has appointed Carl Sargent as Chief Whip and Deputy Business Minister. He will attend all Cabinet meetings. The First Minister will also announce the appointment of new Deputy Ministers shortly.

 
At 3:29 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What about the "Minister of Finance"

Is that Jane Hutt?

 
At 3:45 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Carwyn is a good choice for Education, language and culture. I hear that the Education unions are pleased. Edwina will cut through some of the crap in Health; something that will be required.

Putting Jane in with the farmers is an interesting choice, as is Gibbons with the Economy. Andrew with Public Services will also be interesting.

I also notice that there's a healthy pro-work with Plaid balance and no sign of Leighton. Maybe Mr. Andrew's antics in recent weeks have blotted his copybook?

 
At 4:19 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

think I'm right in saying JD is a veggie.

Oh.
Dear.
!

 
At 5:26 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 7:09 pm, Blogger gwe said...

Wales is a nation, in continual flux. The UK is a collection of nations with serious constitutional issues yet to be properly addressed.

 
At 9:07 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nice map Blambers.

 

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