The Queen

I hate to spoil a surprise, so you'll have to wait until later today or even buy the Wales on Sunday to find out the identity of the two Plaid AMs who are giving the Queen's assembly visit a miss next week.

They'll be visiting a homeless charity in Swansea instead, as you do. And a number of eminent republicans are backing them.

But why aren't there more of these eminent republicans within the ranks of Plaid itself? After all, this is a party which wants to see an independent, socialist Wales. One would have thought the idea of a British monarchy was pretty inimical to that goal.

Of course, Welsh nationalism has often gone hand in hand with a sort of soft royalist tradition which has served both sides well. After all, much of the idea of 'Welshness' we now treasure was concocted by dreamy sycophants in nineteenth century London boozers.

Are Plaid Cymru today really so different?

Labels: , ,

posted by Blamerbell @ 12:59 am,

97 Comments:

At 2:03 am, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Why am I not surprised?

This is just another example of Nationalistic discourtesy and lack of good manners.

HM The Queen has been our Sovereign for many years and IMHO has been a been a Good Queen and has served us all well.

These AMs by their failure to attend just display plain old rudeness which I have become accustomed to from many Nationalistic quarters.

There have been some on this blog, who, having read some of my rather anti-nationalistic postings, have, nevertheless, responded with a reasonable courtesy, notwithstanding their probable apoplexy at my comments. For this I thank you.

Others, who have responded with bile and crude remarks merely strengthen my resolve to continue to argue my points. Obviously, I would wish to make my points with courtesy and would expect to receive the same courtesy.

Unfortunately, these AMs with their churlish attitude seem to forget that the Statutory Instrument giving them their positions as AMs would have been signed by Her Majesty and to refuse to attend on such a flimsy pretext is just plain rude.

Whilst I have no doubt that they will insist that their strong principles preclude their attendance, nevertheless, they will still collect their undeserved salaries by way of Her Majesty's Paymaster General's Office. What hypocrites.

No, I'm not Spartacus...I am....

Her Majesty's humble and loyal servant.

and

Your pal johnny

 
At 3:46 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would have thought one would be Leanne Wood, could the other be Bethan Jenkins.

I'm just sure the homeless of swansea just can't wait for their visit.

 
At 7:49 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of course it's Wood and Jenkins. Was in yesterday's papers!! (Don't suppose you get the Daily Post.)

The Queen will be mightily relieved not to have to meet these two harridans. Feel a bit sorry for the Swansea homeless though.

 
At 8:46 am, Blogger Valleys Mam said...

This does Plaids cause no good.
I do not recognise the English queen either, but would agree, that it is a matter of good manners.
If you are part of the prevailing political system and thereby represent a community wider that your political credos, then you have to reflect on that duty too. Being an AM is quite a responsible job –note the word job and if the same attitude was taken n any other paid position, what would be the consequences
Old Fart has a very good post on this.

 
At 9:02 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

My home city really seems to attract the undesirable republicans.We have been stuck with the useless Alan Williams as MP for years who will only pipe up to slag off the Royals and dozes peacefully when anything important arises.As a result of the presence of this eminent Cardiffian,we have Royal visits rarely.Now these two turn up to pollute the townscape.Why can't they stay home?

 
At 9:31 am, Blogger Merlyn said...

sibling news yet again or a strange fasination with queens?

 
At 9:54 am, Blogger NewWelshRight said...

As some very funny woman called Myfanwy said on Radio Wales after the Rainbow collapsed, Plaid appears to be split between the dungaree wearing faction in the South and the housecoat wearing faction in the North, that's where they divided over working with the Tories and that is where they split here.

 
At 10:16 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh dear ..... yet another example of holier than thou moral conceit, the self-indulgence of a couple of preening, superannuated middle-class dimwits.

I'm agreeing with Johnny Foreigner... bloody hell.

I'm no royalist but I am fed up to the back teeth with the feminist, social worker wing of Plaid Cymru. Since they came on the scene Plaid have made no progress in the valleys.

 
At 11:10 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon said:
"I'm no royalist but I am fed up to the back teeth with the feminist, social worker wing of Plaid Cymru. Since they came on the scene Plaid have made no progress in the valleys. "




I'm plaid and I think a lot will agree with you. Acting like a couple of Cherie Blairs might be a hint we are in for some misplaced manners and maybe some attention seeking. It was definately very rude of them. Their constituents would expect them to be there.

 
At 11:46 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

They are able to adopt this childish behaviour because they know that all they have to do is to keep the support of the small number of Plaid members who will put them top of the regional list in 2011. After all it can't be hard to keep 14 other loonies on your side. It doesn't do anything for the image of the party amongst floating voters. It really smacks of the antics of Private Eye's famous Dave Spart. If they think that this attitude is popular then they should look at the the fate of Tommy Sheriden and his crew in Scotland. The SNP is making more progress than Plaid because at last it is looking at serious policies to improve the lives of ordinary Scots men and women. This includes developing policies to create an enterprise culture rather than living in a mythical past where every member of the working class went home after a hard day down the pit to discuss the delights of Das Kapital. Plaid's performance aainst some pretty poor Labour candidates was awful in the valley areas. In areas like Ogmore the late Ted Merriman was polling double the Plaid vote over 30 years ago. It's about time the dungaree mob woke up and smelt the coffee.

 
At 11:54 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Are you all idiots or what?

The Queen is born into privilege. Her very existence sends out the message to our children that however hard they try they can only truly rise to the top of our society if they're born into it.

In the 21st century that is complete bollocks.

AMs are there by right because the people of Wales voted for them. That's where they get their moral legitimacy, not from the Queen.

I'd say that at least one in fifteen Welsh people agree with the stance of these two politicians, wouldn't you? Therefore they absolutely have the right to draw attention to a cause which is so often overlooked in our crawling propaganda press.

 
At 12:31 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said!

"ou all idiots or what?

The Queen is born into privilege. Her very existence sends out the message to our children that however hard they try they can only truly rise to the top of our society if they're born into it"

I'm sure that the 80 % of the Welsh people will be glad that you think that they are idiots.

George Bush was born into privilege as was Ted Kennedy. Quite frankly I don't really call it a privilege if you occupy a position that you cannot say what you like (free speech) and do as your told.

And she is there by the "will of the people" May be the "the 2 Ronnies" should read Aristotle! In the original Welsh!;)

Other than that they should stop insulting the Welsh people, and Christ definitely don't patronise the the homeless of Swansea.

BTW We don't get the Daily Post out here, it was a educated guess ;)

 
At 12:33 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am very disappointed to read such sub-servient drivel from such supposedly intelligent bloggers. I say if you are a republican you should stand up for it.

I don't think the Assembly is doing any real work when the Queen comes, instead they are drinking champagne. That's not important to anyone.

Good on these two, whoever they are!

 
At 1:13 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon is quite right. People complain that politicians are all the same. Then when they stick up for their views, everyone attacks them.

I'm very glad that some people are airing republican views for once. I bet most of the people on this blog are republican, but won't bother to say so. Things won't change until people start talking about it.

 
At 1:18 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of course. this means the Tories cannot and must not work with Plaid.

Tories are loyalists or nothing . I'm really pleased Plaid have shown themselves for the leftist scumbags they are.

 
At 1:20 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good on them I say! This is the 21st century, and any AM that talks about fighting poverty yet still sucks up to a person that holds herself as superior to the rest of us because of her bloodline is a hypocrite.

 
At 1:29 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

anonymous said:
..I don't think the Assembly is doing any real work when the Queen comes, instead they are drinking champagne. That's not important to anyone.
Good on these two, whoever they are! ...


Disrespect is the seed that can lead to uncivilised behaviour and extreme governments. We have traditions we follow in this country that underlines our civilisation. No law has been passed yet that says these traditions are optional, or God help us. These AMs were elected and are PAID to take part in the government of Wales and recognise it's office.

I can see where the extremists would love this. They have always been around in politics, just about any cause that leads to a destruction od society attracts them.

 
At 1:37 pm, Blogger Left Field said...

Good on them. At last some politicians who will stick by their principles.

 
At 1:46 pm, Blogger Penddu said...

I am a republican, but the deluded antics of Plaid's dungaree clad social workers really pi$$es me off - My take on this is over on the WI blog so I wont repeat it here.

No wonder Plaid have stalled...

 
At 2:07 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Left Field said...
"Good on them. At last some politicians who will stick by their principles. "

Nothing of the sort. This is being rude and disrespectful.
I've met lots of homeless with charity work and most have a lot of respect for the Queen. These two AMs have everything, homes, jobs, and a good lifestyle and they still think they can behave in a way that spits into the face of we know as the backbone of our society.
If schoolchildren behaved like this they would be punished. What sort of examples do these AMs ?

 
At 2:18 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It doesn't matter if they are nationalist or socialist or whatever - first and foremost they are democrats.

The people of Wales voted on May 3rd, but that didn't matter because the First Minister still had to be appointed by the Queen.

We are still subjects in this country and that means that we don't have a democracy and we are not free.

Power rests with one spoilt family who are responsible for a lot more embarrasing antics than these two principled AMs.

Why shouldn't a kid from the Rhondda be head of state one day?

The whole thing stinks of a lack of ambition which has held us back and made Britain one of the most divided societies in the world.

 
At 2:27 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great article on comment is free on this.

Explains how the monarchy is
(a) undemocratic
(b) sexist
(c) racist
(d) religiously prejudiced

We wouldn't tolerate those standards in parliament, in our police force or public services. But for our head of state, the one thing that represents Britain in the world, yeah, that's just fine.

Good on you Bethan and Leanne.

 
At 2:52 pm, Blogger Lyndon said...

Presumably they'll be flying the Royal Standard over the Assembly, you know, the one with no Welsh representation on it. Perhaps the Queen would like to take the opportunity to apologise for what her ancestor did to our royal family?

I'd rather our AMs were seen as rude and chippy than servile. Well done Leanne and Bethan.

 
At 3:08 pm, Anonymous DR said...

Bloody hell! so many royalists on your blog Blamey! Especially pathetic is the 'I'm no royoalist but...' brigade. But what? 'But I'll go out and curtsey anyway?'.
I don't give a shit either way, but if I did I would either go and curtsey or not turn up. The problem really is with people who say they;r e not royalists, don;t believe in the monarchy, but will go and brownnose anyway because they think it makes them look mature. That applies to most of the Labour party and most of Plaid. Surely even the Labour stooges and general mysogynist anon-bloggers who have it in for Leanne Wood and co can see that?
Or will they take the 'I'm not a twat but I'll anonymously post twattish comments' line of defence?
DR

 
At 3:23 pm, Blogger dowlais twp said...

Instead of having HM pop along to open the Senedd, how about a lottery to choose a humble Welsh citizen to perform the opening, or oneof the BBC Wales 60, even better

 
At 3:24 pm, Blogger hafod said...

All these Labourite royalists posting anonymously - bit sad isn't it? After all, aren't people like John Griffiths meant to be republicans? If he is, good on him. But will he bow and scrape to the Queen like a good 'un or find something better to do with his time?
As for the stereotyping of Plaid dungaree social worker lesbians... it just means that Richard Littlejohn's ranting has rubbed off on a couple of people capable of forming sentences. If people like this want an independent Wales, it's not an independent Wales I'd like to see - full of bile and exclusion.
Finally, a challenge to the royalists - can anyone explain to me why the Queen should appoint the First Minister. Isn't that the job of the people?
Anyone who's a royalist is anti-democratic.

 
At 3:29 pm, Anonymous David Walters said...

"the Queen has been our Sovreign.."

and how did we choose her?

Oh yes, we didn't. She was the eldest child of the previous guy, and had she had brothers she wouldn't have got where she is.

Good for the two of them.

Yes, they get are nominally accepted to their positions by the monarch but they have no alternative in this. The implication must otherwise be that they must accept their lot like good loyal subjects and touch their caps/curtsey when told.

For Leanne and Bethan to attend contrary to their principles just allows the unionists and British nationalists to say that Plaid say one thing and do another.

How are we ever to get away from forelock tugging if, whenever we act in a way that distinguishes us from doormats, it is taken to be discourtesy toward our "betters".

 
At 3:40 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wales already has a queen-in-waiting, Ieuen wyn jones.

Just waiting for the court jesters to try and depose King Rhodri

 
At 3:47 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hang-on a minute just because someone despises the spoilt antics of these two childish AMS doesn't mean we're royalists. I'm not a royalist - infact I agree with 'ol Ronnie Reagan that Republic is the most beautiful word in the English language, at the same time I recognize that we live in a constitutional monarchy and that the English Queen is part and parcel of the political process, to boycott her visit is a pointless insult to the democracy in which we live.

OK so we've had some posts from those with a schoolkid mentality who think its cool and principled to be rude to the Queen. Grow up. If these AMs were really principled then how come they didn't stand on a republican platform.

 
At 3:47 pm, Anonymous paul burns said...

This post is interesting - it has really outed the forelock-tuggers, the stooges and the NuLab hypocrites.
Most of Welsh Labour AMs are anti-Royalist, but they'll go on anyway and tug their forelocks. Labour is a corrupt and deceitful outfit that makes it ok to say one thing and do another. The NuLab bloggers on this post are now so desensitised to deceit and lies that they think it's wrong of Plaid to be hypocritical but ok for Labour.
Get with boyos! Welsh Labour don't have the monopoly on hypocrisy any longer. I know it's hard to swallow, but hey, things change!

Great blog MrB.
Paul Burns, Widnes

 
At 3:54 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 3:56 pm, Blogger hafod said...

If these AMs were really principled then how come they didn't stand on a republican platform.

Since when is Plaid Cymru a royalist platform?

 
At 4:06 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 4:12 pm, Blogger Left Field said...

Nothing of the sort. This is being rude and disrespectful.

Is it hell. Walking out would be rude and disrespectful. Anyway, respect has to be earned. No one gets my respect just because of who they are.

I've met lots of homeless with charity work and most have a lot of respect for the Queen.

So?

I remember when Manchester City Council got rid of the position of mayor, there were people on the radio from some of the poorest areas saying that it was a dreadful decision, because they "needed someone to look up to." I guess it's the same mindset to which you are eluding.

If schoolchildren behaved like this they would be punished. What sort of examples do these AMs ?

The sort of example that shows you that you can be a free thinker. This is a democracy you don't have to be bullied into following whatever creed is flavour of the day.

 
At 4:13 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know that this might seem a bit daft to you hafod but what has the queen got to do with royalism? For all I care the constitutional monarch could be a Norwegian Blue Parrot.......but as long as that was the case I'd certainly not go out of my way to insult the parrot.

Since when has Plaid gone to the voters on a republican platform? I'm not talking about some onanistic debate at conference.

 
At 4:15 pm, Anonymous Iolo said...

Thinks. Why is turning down an invitation on grounds of principle bad manners? I'm more concerned about the hypocrites who say they are republicans but turn up anyway. The sight of Lord Elis-Thomas role-playing as Uriah Heep is hardly edifying. Lordy, even Rhodri Morgan doesn't creep around like that.

If you want to see the alternative in action, look at the way the French behaved over their presidential elections. Wrong result, I think, but talk about a mature and inclusive democracy.

 
At 4:22 pm, Blogger Guto said...

Well done them for not attending, but the "visiting the homeless" part is a bit much.

Head or state or not, the Queen is just another person. There is no reason why we should treat Mrs Windsor any difference to any other woman or man. No-one should be forced to swear alliegence to the Queen or to turn up when she visits.

It is an absolute disgrace that the monarch "appoints" our First Minister, how plainly un-democratic is that. I'd want my represetatives to swear an alliegence to the people of Wales, not to the Queen. We're the ones who voted them in, they work for us, not for her.

 
At 4:23 pm, Blogger ryan said...

I'm a royalist and I believe We should all respect the benefits we get from our Monarchy. They have historically supported institutions such as the Royal Society which promotes scientific research and enterprise and are Patrons to an endless list of charitable causes and do much to promote them. A Monarchy of our kind is also the best defense against non-democratic governments and idiot politicians like the Plaid girls.

People who actually believe this Wales would benefit from Republicanism are completely wrong. We will only elect a stupid, incompetent zombie to be our head of state. I'm sure any Free Welsh State would be a complete worldwide laughing stock with an elected President.

It is also disturbing with recent talk of the lack of respect within society to see politicians, those who are elected to lead, set such a bad example by showing such disrespect toward Her Majesty the Queen, a woman who has spent most of her life working hard for all constituent nations within Britain.

 
At 4:26 pm, Blogger GeraintRennie said...

Well done to them, I say. The royal family is an over privillaged relic from the past. It is one of the things helps intench the class system into society. They do nothing important for Britain anymore, apart from leech off our taxes which could be better spent on the NHS, Schools and the Welfare state.

It is just ashame that no Labour AMs are standing up against the biggoted Monarchy.

 
At 4:36 pm, Blogger Blamerbell said...

I remember a few years ago the BBC decided to have a debate about the monarchy for the first ever time.

It was a landmark occasion which finally gave airtime to the other side of the argument after years and years of brushing it under the carpet.

It hasn't been repeated.

There is nothing illegitimate about the politics of republicanism. After all, it's prevalent in a vast amount of countries on this little planet.

At least Bethan and Leanne's decision means that we are having this debate, rather than assuming that everyone simply has the same viewpoint.

As some commenters rightly point out, we don't quite live in a democracy. However, we should at least practice free speech and tolerance.

I know it's an emotive subject, but some of the language and the inferences here have been unacceptable. You know who you are.

Thanks to everyone who respects the boundaries of good taste for continuing to make reading these comments one of the highlights of my day!

 
At 4:44 pm, Blogger Merlyn said...

The sad suggestion that IWJ should be queen is an insult to our true leader - King Dafydd Ist of Meirionnydd.

 
At 4:50 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hafod said...
""All these Labourite royalists posting anonymously - bit sad isn't it?""

Perhaps there is a much wider lesson to be learnt here. I vote Plaid. Yet I believe having a Sovereign has a big part to play in the way all the countries of Britain.
No matter what we think of individuals of her family, most families could not come out clean if they were under such constant scrutiny. When the chips are down our Queen has always turned out trumps. On the day of the 7/7 bombing in London it was she, not any other leader who came on TV to give sympathy and comfort to those who were suffering. Anyone who was directly affected by that terrorist attack will never forget her words.
I also think I speak for a large percentage of those voting Plaid. There is no doubt a segment who are anti-royalist, as there always has been. I was anti-royalist until I lived a bit. But now I live and vote for the future and that is Plaid, and I believe in respecting the Queen.

 
At 4:53 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

GeraintRennie said...


/Well done to them, I say. The royal family is an over privillaged relic from the past. It is one of the things helps intench the class system into society. They do nothing important for Britain anymore, apart from leech off our taxes which could be better spent on the NHS, Schools and the Welfare state. /



Would you have a President in their place? Like America?

 
At 5:00 pm, Anonymous wonder women said...

difficult to know which i care less about

non entity royals coming to open the senedd
or non entity nationalist politicians boycotting the event

 
At 5:02 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I believe John Griffiths AM is a Republican. Does anyone know if he is boycotting the event? Or is he 'mature' enough to turn up( drink some wine, eat a lot and waste a day's work), even though this contradicts his principles?

 
At 5:07 pm, Blogger GeraintRennie said...

Anonymous said...
GeraintRennie said...


/Well done to them, I say. The royal family is an over privillaged relic from the past. It is one of the things helps intench the class system into society. They do nothing important for Britain anymore, apart from leech off our taxes which could be better spent on the NHS, Schools and the Welfare state. /



Would you have a President in their place? Like America?

4:53 PM

-----------------------------------


Many European democracys have a Presidents, Germany, Ireland and France for example. We could have a President that doesn't have much power, and it more a ceremonial role. It is not either the American Presidental System or a monarchy, their are a number of different roads we can go down, not just the American model.

 
At 5:08 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Yes I know who I am. Do you?

My previously deleted posting contained no direct inference. I merely pointed out that the lack of simple courtesy stems from ones upbringing and if that offends, please accept my apology.

Blood's thicker than water eh! Blamer.

Nevertheless, all Nationalist and Republican posters on this blog can make a tangible expression of their Ideals by instantly abandoning all of those disc-like objects and pieces of paper, in their pockets, that are proudly emblazoned with the portrait of their Nemesis.

In fact, let them give them over to the homeless of Swansea and show us all their true indignation.

Your partially parsimonious pal.

johnny.

 
At 5:15 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ain't it funny Leanne can't possibly inhabit the same airspace as the constitutional monarch yet she's always turning up at events organized by the anti-democratic Socialist Workers Party and its various fronts.

 
At 5:27 pm, Blogger Mike Cridland said...

Seems to me that this thread (as predicted) has degenerated into the typical mudslinging that we have seen. Between anons and and made up names.

I don't care what Leanne and Bethan believe. I personally think their boycott a little absurd. Will they swear the oath, or do a "Gerry Adams" and not attend, or for that matter take their salaries? They are there to represent their constituents. Whether they be PC, Labour, Royalist or not.

hafod I don't think you have a clue what your talking about. I've lived in a republic for that last 17 (on and off) years. there's just as much "royalty" over here, along with forelock touching, as in Wales.

BTW She's queen by act of parliament. Peter (extra parliamentary action) Tatchell's post was just not accurate.

Can we go on to something that is actually important?

 
At 5:32 pm, Anonymous daran said...

I was always a bit surprised the republican movement was not more incensed by the Government of Wales Act 2006. Previously the Assembly elected its First Minister, now it just nominates and Her Majesty appoints. Nobody boycotted Rhodri's third inauguration though did they? I half expected it, as the new constitution for the Assembly is clearly a step back from a republican perspective.

 
At 6:02 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

GeraintRennie said...
"Many European democracys have a Presidents, Germany, Ireland and France for example. We could have a President that doesn't have much power, and it more a ceremonial role. "

It would cost the country a lot more to have a President. What if Blair did not have the Queen to answer to? He was trying to behave as if he was a President and costing the taxpayer as much. His farewell tour is a disgraceful extravagance.
The Royal family is independently rich and they do contribute to society. They like the Welsh and most Welsh like them so why try to mend something not broken?

 
At 6:21 pm, Anonymous DR said...

Anyone who thinks, like Ryan, that Wales needs an English monarch to gain world respect is a dick. That at least is simple.
DR

 
At 6:34 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

DR - your views are fine with me. I don't really want an English monarch, or any monarch for that matter. It goes against democracy and social justice, that one woman is head of state with enormousk wealth, while so many live in poverty and public services struggle for money. But...

Like it or not, this is the system we are living with. Boycotting a state visit won't shake the foundations of monarchy, and neither will being rude to a likeable old lady. AMs are there to represent the voters - which isn't possible if they are absent. I agree with their stand, in principle, but am not convinced of its wisdom.

It feels like student politics where opposition is all that matters. If you want to protest against the monarchy, don't draw wages or take an oath - or better still, don't run for election at all while we live in a monarchy!

 
At 6:36 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

So there's a split in the gang of four.

 
At 7:36 pm, Blogger Ted Jones said...

If you consider yourself to be a republican it would clearly be hypocritical to attend.

What the hell has the Queen got to do with the new Wales anyway? The job of opening the new Assembly term should be given to someone from Wales. After all the job of the Assembly and its Government is to serve the people of Wales not the Monarchy.

 
At 7:39 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There can only be two proper socialists in the Assembly then.

 
At 7:46 pm, Blogger Mike Cridland said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 8:03 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

'If you consider yourself to be a republican it would clearly be hypocritical to attend.

What the hell has the Queen got to do with the new Wales anyway? The job of opening the new Assembly term should be given to someone from Wales. After all the job of the Assembly and its Government is to serve the people of Wales not the Monarchy.'

Fine, that's a fair point. But lots of things should. They aren't. As it stands, the Assembly serves the Queen. If you stand for election, you have to accept that. It's a package deal. Unless people democratically remove the monarch, that is the way it is. Bethan and Leanne can't pick out the bits of being AM that they like and turn their noses up at the rest.

 
At 8:12 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It'a pity more AMs don't adopt Leanne Wood's and Bethan Jenkins' position. I suppose the others are too busy buying new hats and suits to think about how ridiculous we look, with this feudal throwback opening our Senedd.

 
At 8:12 pm, Blogger Mike Cridland said...

DR said...

Anyone who thinks, like Ryan, that Wales needs an English monarch to gain world respect is a dick. That at least is simple.
DR"

Who the hell are you to call anyone a "dick"

Wales does not need a "English" monarch to gain respect for Wales. We've got our own "royalty" such as Tom Jones, Antony Hopkins, and of course Catherine Zeta Jones. The only problem with that is nobody over here know where they come from!!

At least I leave real name!

 
At 8:18 pm, Blogger hafod said...

I know that this might seem a bit daft to you hafod but what has the queen got to do with royalism?

Apart from being the living embodiment of it?

For all I care the constitutional monarch could be a Norwegian Blue Parrot.......but as long as that was the case I'd certainly not go out of my way to insult the parrot.

The Norwegian Blue is dead. Royalty isn't and has a very real role in the British constitution and the way our state is run. That is particularly the case in the way they act as an "unifying force" in the light of devolution.

Since when has Plaid gone to the voters on a republican platform?

Plaid's leadership has been weak on the matter of pushing independence (and therefore a Welsh republic) but I doubt many Plaid voters believe they're voting to strengthen the monarchy when they vote Plaid.

The shrill and personal attacks on these two for standing by their principles has been illuminating. No doubt had they attended the royal shindig they would have been condemned as hypocrites by the same people decrying them as lesbo-social worker-dungaree-wearing posers now.

 
At 8:19 pm, Blogger Lyndon said...

"It would cost the country a lot more to have a President. "

I think it a bit unlikely that a future Welsh president would have his own train, squadron of aircraft and helicopters and estates in Scotland.

"The Royal family is independently rich and they do contribute to society."

Ah yes, they're independently rich. And how did they become wealthy in the first place? By killing people and stealing their land and property. So that's OK then. But they do a lot of work for Charidee, oh yes.

 
At 8:21 pm, Anonymous democratic republican said...

So there's a split in the gang of four.

Oh, puhlease!

At least the republicans of Wales - who probably number 25-30% - have a voice.

 
At 8:24 pm, Anonymous queen camilla said...

Hard to believe the shite coming from these royalists - the Queen's done a good job. To quote Yosser Hughes: "I can do that... gissa job"

And anyone who thinks the present incumbent has done a good job should consider the inbred fuckwits who will follow her, purely on the basis of their birth... Charles the green hypocrite, Harry the nazi and all manner of other emotional cripples.

 
At 8:29 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey camilla, who said she'd done a good job?

hey hafod, did anyone here call Leanne and Bethan lesbos? Well apart from you that is.

 
At 9:08 pm, Anonymous Matt Wright said...

That "Anonymous" person really gets around doesn't he/her?!

Matt Wright

 
At 9:21 pm, Anonymous An O'Nymous said...

mmm....there are 654 Matt Wright's on the UK electoral register.......I wonder which one you are?

 
At 9:31 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"At least the republicans of Wales -who probably number 25-30% - have a voice."

Er..... was there a republican party standing at the election then, if there was I would have voted for it.

Still leaves 70%-75% who I guess are constitutional monarchists. Pity that Leanne and Bethan didn't have the good manners to represent that block of their constituents at the Assembly opening ain't it. But there you are that's politicians for you, want your vote at election time, then they can ignore you for another 4 years.

 
At 9:40 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lyndon said...

*I think it a bit unlikely that a future Welsh president would have his own train, squadron of aircraft and helicopters and estates in Scotland.*

Well you never know. The NHS manages to spend billions somewhere and no one knows where it's going to. Not that I'm suggesting anything crooked of course. They say power can corrupt, nothing says it cannot corrupt the status of being a president.

 
At 10:53 pm, Anonymous queen camilla said...

Hey camilla, who said she'd done a good job?

This sounds like some kind of endorsement: "our Queen has always turned out trumps."

 
At 11:14 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

camilla - thanks, missed that

 
At 1:26 am, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Well! What a thread this has turned out to be.

A simple act of discourtesy by two disrespectful hypocrites and the criticism of it has brought a real selection of moronic responses from out of the woodwork.

The usual republican bile is demonstrated by some of the more distasteful comments regarding Her Majesty and her family.

I am a little disappointed that Blamer chose to delete my post pointing out that, IMHO, discourtesy clearly reflects on parenting and then chose to allow a post describing Her Majesty's family as "inbred fuckwits".

Come on Blamer! I realise that this is your blog but I really think that a little even-handedness wouldn't go amiss.

One of your more moronic posters: Lyndon, protests that the only reason that Her Majesty is wealthy is because of the killing people and stealing of their land and property.

Well Lyndon, I have news for you. The land that YOU occupy was at some time fought over. So what right do you have to it? Pillock!

Anyway, I rather be ruled by a winner than a loser.

A word of advice for you Republicans out there. If you wish to dismantle the Constitution by which Her Majesty rules you, kindly do so through the appropriate channels.

Whilst I have, no doubt of, and, the fullest respect for, your principles. Surely you must appreciate that some of the less than complimentary expressions of your Republicanism hardly further your cause.

If you fought for your cause with the Honour, Dignity and the Respect for your Enemy that befits a true Warrior you may find that your cause could possibly find more favour.

Naturally, from some of the comments on this blog I can see that Her Majesty has absolutely no worries on that score.

My family and I have served Her Majesty, in uniform and out, for many years with distinction and have noted that among her most loyal and devoted Peoples, the Welsh have been relied on for many years to spring to her defence. In fact the freedoms that we all enjoy are as a result of the spillage of much blood by the Welsh in the Queen's name. So don't you forget it.

Still, at least I am fortunate on one thing. If the Nationalists had ruled Wales during WW11 I would have probably ended up as a lampshade.

Your incandescent yet illuminating pal.

johnny.

 
At 2:44 am, Anonymous nonny said...

well jf I agree with a lot of what you say in this thread. What's your view on Plaid's current anti-war stance?

 
At 4:00 am, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

As far as the current wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are concerned. I assume that you mean Plaid's stance regarding a total non-involvement.

If that be the case I would merely state my personal view is that these wars had elements of illegality but that Her Majesty's Armed Forces do their duty nevertheless. We also have Allies that expect a response when we are called upon, as they responded when our backs were up against the wall.

It was a decision of monstrous gravity that I feel fortunate not to have had to make.

I am of the view that if Wales were Independent and governed by Plaid during WW11 and today I am convinced that any Plaid involvement would have been merely on a Vichy or L'Etat Francais basis and no more. They would have been collaborators. If smilar circumstances occured today I have no doubt that Plaid would act similarly.

I would, of course, immediately offer my services to the 'resistance' against these traitors to Her Majesty.

We would all have been slaves to the Fuhrer and Wales would merely be designated Liebensraum.

Plaid would have just loved rounding up recalcitrant monoglots and forcing them to watch unlimited editions of Pobl Y Cwm without sub-titles......

.......but I digress. With regard to our Troops' current situation, I firmly believe that a wind of change is currently in favour of a relatively gradual withdrawal as the Iraqis gain control but I think that an Islamic inter-factional consensus could be achieved in the near future.

There is some hope.

Afghanistan on the other hand has given us many problems in the past. Remember?

It brought the might of Russia to a halt and seems to be doing the same to us again.

Fortunately our Troops are led by able and competent Officers and not political apparatchiks and are consequently spared many unnecessary losses. I just hope that they come home soon.

Your pointedly patriotic but peace preferring pal.

johnny.

 
At 7:46 am, Anonymous nonny said...

Thanks for the response jf.

My own view is that the fascist beast was not slain in 1945. The current wars are being fought against the same enemy and with the same equivocators on the home front.

I guess that leaves me in a small minority amongst Plaid voters.

 
At 8:47 am, Blogger Cymro said...

Johnny, I have put up with your rambles before - youhad a fair point to make. But now you've crossed the line. My grandfather fought in the war. He risked death and capture so that you could write your long-winded posts. And he is a card carryng member of Plaid, as are many other veterans.

That was before it became clear what the Nazis were up to in the camps and how much of a threat they were. Yes, people questioned the wisdom of involving Wales in WWII. So shut up and leave people like my grandfather alone.

As for the rest of your post, Bethan and Leanne have their principles. If they want to stand up for them, can you give me a good reason why they can't? They are arguing that monarchy is undemocratic and against the ideas of social justice. Don't they have a point?

 
At 8:50 am, Blogger Cymro said...

Johnny, I have put up with your rambles before - youhad a fair point to make. But now you've crossed the line. My grandfather fought in the war. He risked death and capture so that you could write your long-winded posts. And he is a card carryng member of Plaid, as are many other veterans.

Yes, people questioned the wisdom of involving Wales in WWII. That was before it became clear what the Nazis were up to in the camps and how much of a threat they were. So shut up and leave people like my grandfather alone.

As for the rest of your post, Bethan and Leanne have their principles. If they want to stand up for them, can you give me a good reason why they can't? They are arguing that monarchy is undemocratic and against the ideas of social justice. Don't they have a point?

 
At 9:14 am, Blogger Penddu said...

1) The Monarchy has no place in a modern society
2) WW2 is irrelevant to this discussion
3) Leanne & Bethan have principles but their actions are naive and immature

 
At 9:44 am, Blogger Marcusian said...

"1) The Monarchy has no place in a modern society
2) WW2 is irrelevant to this discussion
3) Leanne & Bethan have principles but their actions are naive and immature"

I agree with this...

The problem like Blamerbell pointed out is that to me this is either 'one in all in' or not, you are either in Plaid because you want an independent Wales or your not. Had we have had a Rainbow, IWJ would have been there baubles and all meeting the queen with his gurning grin.

It also somes up some of the very tokenistic gestures made by some nationalists, yes i am republican, but i dont think that the actions of these two AM's helps the cause. I have alot of time for Bethan, less so Leanne, but none of them were spouting the independence tune at election time. Why wasnt they making independence the top issue if they wanted an independent Wales free of the monarchy? Hmm, i wonder why. No 60,000 grand salary, no nice cosy 'region' that doesnt actually involve much day to day case work.

 
At 9:48 am, Anonymous Iolo said...

The British monarchy ain't just feudal and the sign of an immature polity.

Correct me if I'm wrong but not only must the monarch be the eldest Windsor child but also not a Catholic, Jew, Sikh, Buddist, etc. They also claim this status 'by the grace of god'.

As Clousseau would say, "It's the loi!"

 
At 11:31 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A reality check.

Theres a e-petition to keep the 10p tax band,this is something that is going to effect a lot of people on low income.if you have a moment please could you sign it.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Savethe10pcband/

 
At 11:42 am, Blogger LabourMark said...

ANYONE ELSE HAVING PROBLEMS GETTING ON TO ASSEMBLY NOTES BLOG

 
At 12:24 pm, Anonymous Graham Smith said...

While other AMs are bowing and doffing their caps to this unelected and unaccountable head of state, two Plaid AMs will be speaking with constituents about real issues. Well done them.

The idea that the boycott is 'rude' is misplaced and plain wrong. Given the nature of the monarchy it is impossible to completely separate the institution from the personalities. So any attack on the institution or demonstration against is bound to seem like a personal attack, but that's not what it is. We cannot be asked to refrain from criticising a public body just because those who hold office might be offended (and, to be honest, I doubt the Queen takes it so personally).

What the two Plaid AMs are doing is demonstrating support for a democratic alternative to a hereditary public office. The monarchy is unjustifiable and indefensible. Here we have two elected representatives taking a stand so that they can get that message across to a wider audience. They should be applauded, not attacked.


Graham Smith
Republic

 
At 7:14 pm, Anonymous der said...

I can see strong arguments on both sides. I am not a royalist myself. Having read the different sides of the argument the last couple of days......I now mildly support what the two Plaid ladies are doing. It's what might happen in a healthy democracy.

 
At 7:35 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Cymro:

Without wishing to go down the road of 'My Dad's bigger than your Dad', I would state that my father was an RSM in the rear-guard at Dunkirk, you know, machine guns and bayonets etc. and was a card carrying member of the Conservative Party.

I have no doubt that had your Granddad met my Dad in a War zone, then the matter of which card they were carrying would have been irrelevant. They would have fought shoulder to shoulder for the King and our mutual freedom.

Your Granddad's war service shows clearly where his priorities lay.

He took an oath of Allegiance to the King and clearly stuck to it. His allegience to Plaid was secondary.

As you are aware, many Welshmen fought for the UK in the war and many do today. Are you implying that they are misguided or what?

I have absolutely no doubt that if this country had succumbed to Hitler that the more extremist elements of Plaid would need to have been watched very closely as their previous actions and those of Plaid's founder would have at least raised an eyebrow.

Fortunately for us all, WE won the war and that enables you and I to state our opinions freely.

You have sought to personalise this thread and by doing so have shown the weakness of your point.

You say that I should "shut up and leave people like your grandfather alone".

How dare you? You mentioned him, not I. Do I take this to mean that I am not allowed to criticise Plaid's attitude? I take this to mean that you wish to remove my freedom of speech.

As for your nonsensical assertion that news of Nazi atrocities changed a lot of Plaid member's minds, this is unsustainable as very little was known of the true nature of these matters until later in the War.

Your Grandfather fought for King and Country. He may well have fought for Plaid as well, but if he was an anti-monarchist what was he doing there? He clearly knew where his priorities lay.

With regard to the two women non-attendees at The Queen's visit, I merely restate that IMHO their snub was discourteous and hypocritical. As I have previously stated they take their undeserved salaries directly from Her Majesty's Paymaster General. Nuff said.

Your polemical yet pertinent pal.

johnny.

 
At 7:58 pm, Blogger hedd said...

"Your Grandfather fought for King and Country. He may well have fought for Plaid as well, but if he was an anti-monarchist what was he doing there?"

Maybe he was against fascism? Maybe he was forcedto go to war? Are you trying to say that all soldiers are Royalists?

Well done Bethan & Leanne!

A superb post on "Wales - World Nation". A part of which I have copied below:

"The Finns have their own Finnish President to open their own Parliament. They do not call on the King of Sweden to do it, not because he is a King but because he is not Finnish.

Wales does not need a Foreign Monarch to open our Senedd. Just as everywhere else - one of our own can do it."

http://walesworldnation.welshblogs.co.uk/2007/06/royal_visit.html

 
At 8:43 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Finland ... well of course there are a whole load of independent countries who accept the English Queen as their head of state - Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Jamaica etc.

Nothing to do with kow-towing or doffing the cap or the hereditary principle...... just a constitutional arrangement which seems to work as well as any other.

The two AMs should have gone as a mark of respect to the 70% or 80% of their constituents who support constitutional monarchy. If they couldn't stomach it then they could have simply stayed away. Instead they had to invite the TV cameras to their protest, a juvenile protest.

 
At 11:01 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yet another example of the self-indulgent so-called 'elites' who talk about democracy but haven't a clue what it is. If we had true democracy we never would have the pathetic assembly that we have now, instead we have had hugely significant changes to our constitution driven forward by a small bunch of pro-independence, welsh speakers. They seem to forget about the masses who have nothing in common with them.

 
At 11:04 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Where are the polls which say that the majority of the Welsh public are monarchists?

Thanks

 
At 11:09 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

hedd said....Maybe he was against fascism? Maybe he was forced to go to war? Are you trying to say that all soldiers are Royalists?

johnny says....

hedd, all soldiers wear the King/Queen's uniform and swear allegiance as well. If he was conscripted he had the choice as a concientious objector and chose to fight in the King's name. Does this not constitute Royalism?

I apologise to cymro for further mention of his Granddad's service but feel that hedd's comments cannot remain unaddressed.

You describe Her Majesty as a "Foreign Monarch" and the Sennedd as "our Sennedd".

Where on Earth did you get the Sennedd from, may I ask?

It was given to you by the Good Grace of Her Majesty and Her Government.......and don't you forget it.

Do you really think that your rude and offensive words give your cause any credence? It just shows that your cause is founded on hatred and racism.

At least we can rest easy in our beds in the full knowledge that the maintenance of the Security and Defence of the UK will NEVER be anywhere near the hands of Nationalists, Republicans or any others that would seek to undermine the Constitutional Integrity of these islands.

One slight hiccup on the Finland question. They are an Independent Country. Wales is part of the UK.

Sorry and all that, but it looks like you'll have to live with it.

Your psephological pal.

johnny.

 
At 11:14 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Anonymous said...
Where are the polls which say that the majority of the Welsh public are monarchists?

Thanks

11:04 PM

johnny says.....

Probably at the same place as the polls that say that the majority of the Welsh public are nationalists.

 
At 11:31 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

JF,
very offensively said:
"You describe Her Majesty as a "Foreign Monarch" and the Sennedd as "our Sennedd".
Where on Earth did you get the Sennedd from, may I ask?
It was given to you by the Good Grace of Her Majesty and Her Government.......and don't you forget it."
"Do you really think that your rude and offensive words give your cause any credence? It just shows that your cause is founded on hatred and racism.
At least we can rest easy in our beds in the full knowledge that the maintenance of the Security and Defence of the UK will NEVER be anywhere near the hands of Nationalists, Republicans or any others that would seek to undermine the Constitutional Integrity of these islands."




This tirade really shows how very ignorant and hateful you are. You do not know the history and you do not know the facts. You do not know who the poster is????

 
At 12:16 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

johnny foreigner said:

"One slight hiccup on the Finland question. They are an Independent Country. Wales is part of the UK."

Of course Finland was once part of Russia and only became independent in 1917. Wales is currently part of the UK, who knows what the future will bring.

JF goes on and on about the Wales of 70 years ago. As it happens I find this quite interesting. I believe that some in Wales would have followed the path of some in Brittany and supported a German occupation. History would have placed them in the same position as the Bretons, to either support the Germany that offered them independence and basic linguistic and cultural rights or to oppose a Germany that was a monsterous tyrrany.

Finland also faced a similar dilemma and fought on the side of the Axis.

Anyway I'm more interested in today and the fact that Plaid Cymru does not support the struggle against fascism being waged however ineffectively today in Iraq and Afghanistan today.... I guess I have just lost the support of most readers with that comment but never mind.

 
At 12:29 am, Blogger hedd said...

"At least we can rest easy in our beds in the full knowledge that the maintenance of the Security and Defence of the UK will NEVER be anywhere near the hands of Nationalists, Republicans or any others that would seek to undermine the Constitutional Integrity of these islands."

Erm, the maintenance of the Security and Defence of the UK IS held by Nationalists, British Nationalists!

They believe in an independent state called the UK, Welsh nationalists believe in an independent state called WALES, but both camps are nationalists.

I would much prefer that Welsh Nationalists held the power over defence and security, and not right wing British Nationalists. The world would not be in such a mess if that was the case!

 
At 12:47 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hedd said;

"They believe in an independent state called the UK, Welsh nationalists believe in an independent state called WALES, but both camps are nationalists."

Aren't you about 30 years behind the times?

It seems to me that just about all "the great and the good" in England as well as most Welsh nationalists actually believe in an independent state called EUROPE.

What would Welsh independence mean, there would be huge areas of life over which we would have no control whatsoever except as a very minor voice, a bit like our position in the UK really.

 
At 1:19 am, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

hedd and the two nonnys:

hedd:

Oh dear, you are absolutely right. I should have put the word Welsh in front of Nationalists and Republicans. Well spotted. Go to the top of the class.

Nevertheless, my point remains and if you think that the Government is going to trust Welsh Nationalists or Republicans with anything to do with Security or Defence you may dream on.

Unfortunately my response re: Welsh Military Royalists seems to have satisfied you. Progress indeed.

You keep on repeating that I am always referring to 60/70 years ago. It's called history and is the basis on which forecasts are able to be made. Are you really saying that Historical reference may not be made. If that be the case why are Welsh Nationalists alwys harping on about Owen Glyndwr?

Talk about double standards.

nonny:

you say that I offensively said....Exactly what did you find offensive?

nonny went on to say.....

This tirade really shows how very ignorant and hateful you are. You do not know the history and you do not know the facts. You do not know who the poster is????

Exactly WHAT history do I not know? Exactly WHAT facts do I not know?........and WHY should I be concerned as to who the poster is?

Is this some veiled threat? Is this something that I should be 'worried' about? Pray tell.

Should I be concerned by the postings of people who can't or won't ID themselves. Give yourself a silly name like mine and we can communicate more effectively or is Anonymous just an homogeneous mass?

You know who I am, don't you?

No, I'm not Spartacus although I could be persuaded.

I'm just.

Your pasteurised pal.

johnny.

 
At 1:23 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm proud of the 2 Plaid AM's for not attending and doing something else more worthwhile with their time! Organisations within the voluntary sector were invited to stand outside and welcome the queen. I run one of the organisation's that was invited and I rejected the invitation. The sector is under-funded and I work from 9am to 9pm most days trying to help the communities across Wales and NO I don't get overtime. I've got no time to be standing outside to Welcome someone who has never had to deal with the problem of tying to help as many people as possible with limited funding. So for the AM's who sat around enjoying the champagne...good for you. I can see you making such a huge difference to your consitutents.

 

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