Who are you?

It's Saturday. Everyone's resigned to the fact that we've got a new first minister. And yet the Liberal Democrats are still plugging away.

After ruining both the prospect of a Lib-Lab coalition and a Rainbow Coalition they are now focusing on tearing themsevlves apart. Today, they meet for a special conference. And yet the only remaining chance of a rainbow is in one of Peter Black's increasingly repulsive ties. How many Lib Dem activists, I wonder, would like to tighten that particular knot?

But amidst the recriminations, don't you think we have a right to know who voted against the triple alliance on Wednesday night? I'm told there were 18 people eligible to vote in the national executive ballot which sent the rainbow coalition crashing back to earth. But Lib Dem members never got a chance to have their say. Instead, they were shafted by a bunch of councillors and party stooges.

Here's a list of the Lib Dem national executive:

Alastair Baker
Treasurer, Welsh Liberal Democrats National Executive Committee

David Bourne
National Executive Committee

Eleanor Burnham
National Executive Committee Policy Committe

Nick Burree
National Executive Committee

Jon Burree
Secretary, Welsh Liberal Democrats National Executive Committee

Michael German
Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats in the National Assembly National Executive Committee

Alison Goldsworthy
Vice Chair, National Executive Committee

Dominic Hannigan
Campaigns & Candidates Committee MIDR Cymru National Executive

Rob Humphreys
President, Welsh Liberal Democrats Chair, National Executive Committee

Jim Kelleher
National Executive Committee

John Last
Chair, Campaigns & Candidates Committee National Executive Committee

Ben Lloyd
National Executive Committee

Elgan Morgan
Policy Committee
Chair, Conference Committee
National Executive Committee

Aled Morris Jones
National Executive Committee

Lembit Öpik
Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats
Federal Vice President
National Executive Committee

Veronica Watkins
National Executive Committee

Kirsty Williams
National Executive Committee
AC
Michael Woods
Chair, Policy Committee
Campaigns & Candidates Committee
National Executive Committee

One of these people cast the vote which changed the course of Welsh politics for years to come. Shouldn't we be told who it was and why?

By the way, as I now feel compelled to share every aspect of my life with you, I should tell you I met Labour's David Taylor for the first time last night. He's adamant he wasn't behind that short-lived Arsembly effort. And in the flesh, he's quite an amiable chap. He even lets Leighton Andrews write his own blog sometimes...


UPDATE: The Lib Dem special conference has voted 125-77 in favour of reviving the coalition project they spectacularly shelved on Wednesday night. But Wales has now got a first minister and there doesn't seem to be much appetite from Plaid Cymru to resurrect the rainbow in the short term.

Today was billed as Super Saturday. But the triple alliance now has about as much momentum as Rhodri's static caravan in Mwnt.

It's time, then, to put the feet up, watch the footy and take a break. I don't think there'll be a revolution this weekend after all.

Labels: , ,

posted by Blamerbell @ 12:05 am,

102 Comments:

At 12:17 am, Blogger gwe said...

18 in total. I count 3 AMs. Preumably since they'd voted as a grioup they wouldn't have another stab at it. That leaves 15. So who wasn't there?

 
At 12:26 am, Blogger Blamerbell said...

The internal tergiversations of the Lib Dems will never cease to amaze me.

But if they're serious about honesty and democracy, they should tell us EXACTLY what happened on Wednesday night.

 
At 12:35 am, Blogger Guto said...

The vote was a 9-9 tie so I guess the AM's did vote again. That puts Kirsty as one of the 9. Lembit and German voted for it.

 
At 12:50 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some on that committee have been around for decades.

 
At 1:57 am, Anonymous Rene Kinzett said...

What a bunch! With one or two notable exceptions (Rob Humphreys especially) this really is a list of the most boring, unimportant, self-satisfied bunch of jumped up leaflet deliverers you could ever find. I used to find Welsh LibDem Conferences the most appalling waste of time and energy. A veneer of democracy hides a desperate game of cronyism and placemanship. Bear in mind that to get a place on the all powerful Executive Committee, you need only get a few of your mates nominated as Conference Reps from a few constituency parties...they then turn up at a small college hall in Llandrindod Wells and cast their half dozen votes in your favour. Due to STV you are bound to get elected with a modest amount of first preference votes.

Really, you must see this lot to believe it. A completed joke.

 
At 1:58 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Instead of worrying about votes cast in a LibDem private meeting, we should concentrate on votes cast by the people of Wales.

More or less, it went

32 % Labour

22 % Tories

22 % Plaid Cymru

12 % LibDems

You're kidding yourself if you think there was a great popular uprising in favour of the Rainbow. If you're so convinced, why not campaign on a Rainbow coalition ticket at the next election?

I'm sorry, but the shape of the next WAG should not be decided by a group of 18 activists from any party.

 
At 5:23 am, Blogger Vashti said...

32 % Labour
22 % Tories
22 % Plaid Cymru
12 % LibDems


So that's 32% Labour, 56% Rainbow, then?

Seems to me the rainbow coalition would have had a damn sight more legitimacy than Labour - if only they could have got it together and not fought like trapped rats the whole time, which I doubt.

 
At 7:09 am, Blogger Valleys Mam said...

If Mike German gets the push and steps down, have you seen who is next on the list.
Its his wife!
I know someone else who met Arse recently and found it was DT too.
His approach to politics is not what we need here in Wales ,amusing as it is to those not in his line of fire.

 
At 7:30 am, Anonymous Daran said...

"Due to STV you are bound to get elected with a modest amount of first preference votes."

Where was the threshold last time then? Anyone know?

 
At 7:43 am, Anonymous ap-nonimus said...

Let's try and work it out. Definately pro-rainbow were Mike, Lembit, Veronica, Elinor and Elgan Morgan. I'm guesing here but I suspect that with their Cardiff backgrounds Alison and Dominic would also have voted yes. That's seven. Kirsty would certainly have been against as would Rob (what's a trot doing doing in the Lib Dems?) Humphries.

 
At 9:04 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Has anyone read Peter Black's latest post. It seems that no-one realised that their anti-vote was going to scupper the coalition. Peter was in some sort of comfort zone where he thought his no vote didn't matter. What a shambles of a party. Meanwhile local hospitals and schools close. As for Kirsty Williams, well if you ever get into a conversation with the woman it usually ends up with her talking about herself. Massive ego, no brain.

 
At 9:52 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would say that it was Rob Humphreys, he doesn't call himself 'Red Rob' for nothing.. Which begs the question as to why he's a Lib dem in the first place.

David Bourne is equally as likely to have cast that vote. He is not a nice man.

 
At 10:41 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Instead of all this guesswork, why doesn't Rene ask one of the many friends he made during his time in the Lib Dems? Oh sorry, I forgot...

 
At 10:51 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Any news from Llandrindod? Were Kirsty's geriatric groupies out picketing the meeting again? Are the Cheeky Girls really going to perform on the bandstand at 2.30?

 
At 11:32 am, Blogger Cymro said...

To be honest, I think we're taking this too seriously. This is what the Lib Dems do. Halfare Tory converts, the other half are escapees from Labour. It's no wonder that they can never agree with anything.

I'm starting to think that it's we who are expecting too much of them.

 
At 12:12 pm, Blogger gwe said...

Hi,

I've caught the bug and started a blog. Please drop by. If you like what you read, perhaps you could give me a plug on your site(s)!

ta

(Once I've wroked out how to do it I'll be creating links of my own!)

 
At 2:23 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

so the lib dems voted nearly two to one for the rainbow...the exec cttee should be strung up for what they did on weds

 
At 2:39 pm, Blogger Geraint said...

I would be ashamed of Wales and ashamed to be Welsh of the Tories were let back into government in Wales by the backdoor in this Rainbow coalition. 63% voted for Progressive parties in the Assembly.

Wales would have the shame and humiliation of being the first place in the UK to let the Tories back into government.

 
At 2:58 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

so now who are the are the party that is 'denying democracy' to quote Rhodri Morgan in his TUC speech this week

Lib Dem grass roots vote in favour after the Labour Party bring forward the vote for First Minister at the National Assembly fo Wales - Proof positive that Labour are still in denial and can't stand anybody else being in power in Wales

 
At 3:05 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Geraint said...
"I would be ashamed of Wales and ashamed to be Welsh of the Tories were let back into government in Wales by the backdoor in this Rainbow coalition. 63% voted for Progressive parties in the Assembly.
Wales would have the shame and humiliation of being the first place in the UK to let the Tories back into government. "

Geraint, the New Labour bubble is about to burst. There is an economic crisis around the corner. You will not be able to blame that on the Tories after Blair's majorities.

Maybe it's a good thing the Rainbow did not come off now. Let the New Labour minority deal with the coming crisis. Their leaders were the authors. This will put Labour in the daekness for a long time.

 
At 4:20 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes - just WHY exactly did the Presiding Officer agree to the sitting on Friday - when there was already one organised for next week?

Maybe Dafydd had already been told what Cabinet post he'd have to do after Helen Mary ruled herself out of the top team on Tuesday? Perhaps he decided he'd rather be PO after all...

Whatever, Labour's seizure of the moment was an inspired move.

 
At 4:32 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Geraint -what the Christ are you on about "ashamed to be Welsh" my arse. You're a fellow who supported that IRA apologist McDonnell for leader of your party.

Tens of thousands of perfectly decent Welsh people vote Tory, they're not vermin. This hatred of Tories is very much of the same mindset that breeds sectarianism and racism - blind sterile prejudice. Grow up.

 
At 4:42 pm, Blogger Geraint said...

Anon 2:58 PM

The fact it that the Rainbow coaltion was dead for the foreseable future after Wednesday, the mness caused by that would take months to sort out, if ever. You may want another election, but the Welsh public do not.

Anon 3:05 PM

Is this the same "economic crisis" we were going to have all the other times it been said it will happen since 1997 but hasn't? Besides which Wales is a PR system, Welsh Labour would be back into government much quicker, in a coalition with Plaid and/or he Liberal Democrats. Since Wales is naturally progressive and the Tories are not. (Be it a majority of Liberal MPs pre-Labour or majority of Labour MPs now, and a majority of votes going to progressive Parties in the Assembly since 1999) so I wouldn't get a bottle out if I where you just yet, since Wales won't tolerate the Tories for too long.

 
At 4:47 pm, Blogger Welsh Spin said...

The PO was doing his job - facilitating his fellow AMs making a recommendation for First Minister. He is more or less obliged to call a Plenary as soon as he is satisfied that a result can be achieved. Once Jocelyn made clear that Plaid would not oppose Rhodri's nomination DET wasted no time - and rightly not! Meeting on Friday also saves the Assembly from having to compensate several hundred officials for the loss of their 'privilege day' on Tuesday marking the Crown's birthday in order to go through a ritual lasting under half an hour.

 
At 4:48 pm, Blogger Geraint said...

Anonymous 4:32 PM

Hmmm, last time I checked the Tories hate Labour just as much as Labour hates the Tories. I don't care who is in government in Wales, so long as it is not the Tories.

 
At 5:01 pm, Blogger Guto said...

That's a pathetic attitude geraint and sums up a lot of why so many people have turned on Labour.

History shouldn't be the be all to end all in politics. The Rainbow agreement was much more "progressive" (your word not mine!) that anything Labour offered in their manifesto.

Clearly some people care more about petty political historical grudges than in looking at what can be done for Wales in the present. That's an increadibly uninspiring attitude and it's holding Wales back.

 
At 5:12 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Blamerbell,

Your list of the Lib Dem executive is wrong, you have listed at least one person who is not a member of it and possibly more.(I can't quite remember).

I would suggest that you take this post down, go and do your research properly and then repost it.

Secondly, Rene is lying yet again. NEC members are elected by grassroots postal ballott and not in a small hall in Llandrindod, as he well knows. He is used to losing Lib Dem internal elections, hence the fact he is now a Tory.

 
At 5:23 pm, Blogger Blamerbell said...

anon, I only go with what is on their website, which admittedly is usually wrong.

If someone from the Lib Dems wants to send me a corrected version that's fine.

But it's up to them to make sure what they put on their website is correct, not me.

 
At 5:25 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Man Utd fans hate Man City fans, City fans hate Man U - that's about the mentality of the Geraints, Peter Blacks and Gang of Fours of this world. Time for a lot of people in Wales to grow up and set aside this childish prattle.

 
At 5:27 pm, Blogger Cymro said...

Geraint, why that attitude? I doubt that I will ever vote Tory - but at least 22% in Wales feel otherwise. I think Plaid can improve our vote, but nobody - Labour, Plaid or Tory - will win a majority in Wales. This is how our proportional representation system works. They are used to left and right working together all over Europe.

You'll need to get used to it too.

 
At 5:31 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Blamerbell,

Whatever, The entire discussion above is stupid though because everyone is discussing people who are not on the committee.

 
At 5:40 pm, Blogger Cymro said...

This discussion is quite sensible actually. If the Lib Dems don't know who's in charge of the party, how is anyone else to know? Then again, the Lib Dems are never reliable. On anything. Amateurs.

 
At 5:51 pm, Blogger Geraint said...

I was bored, wanted to try and say something contriversal, meh. The truth is I know that the Tories think their policies and idealogy will help Wales, I believe they are wrong, but still.

 
At 5:53 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The footage shown just now on BBC Wales is damning - German being contragulated by his sheep on a possible cabinet post. I thought this was supposed to be a victory for their grassroot supporters!

 
At 5:56 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon said:
"Whatever, Labour's seizure of the moment was an inspired move.
"

Tell them that in six months. They'll be wishing they had waited then.

Then, why are Labour supporters so politicaly short sighted?

 
At 6:03 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said
/Tens of thousands of perfectly decent Welsh people vote Tory, they're not vermin. This hatred of Tories is very much of the same mindset that breeds sectarianism and racism - blind sterile prejudice. Grow up. /

I'm a Plaid supporter and most of my friends and neighbours are Tories. They are perfectly nice people and in their minds the Conservative party is what will bring the best to Wales. I have also been active in Labour and the Lib/Dems and there is a difference. The latter are more into campaigning but the Tories know exactly what they want and go for it. We really missed an opportunity this time.

 
At 6:09 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

geraint said:
"Is this the same "economic crisis" we were going to have all the other times it been said it will happen since 1997 but hasn't?"

You're lucky if you have not already been hit my rising interest rates. And they are still going up. The advice now is to get rid of any loans, debts and mortgages asap. Maybe this was why Blair finished his term early.
Read the intelligent papers Geraint, you'll learn something.

 
At 6:17 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Geraint said...

......Hmmm, last time I checked the Tories hate Labour just as much as Labour hates the Tories. I don't care who is in government in Wales, so long as it is not the Tories. .....

Geraint, you are making things up now. Go check again.

There was a time the working class envied those who traditionally voted Tory because they were more monied, but that is no longer the case. Just think of all the rich Labour MPs/AMs/councillors you know. Nobody hates them. Nobody hates anybody.
There are stupid people who cause problems for everyone. Who won't compromise, do not know how to work as a team. They irritate and annoy. But we don't hate them.

 
At 6:23 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Geraint said...
"""I was bored, wanted to try and say something contriversal, meh.""""

Shame on you Geraint. Naughty boy.

Methinks you are now doing a runner.

 
At 6:31 pm, Anonymous Tony said...

Those of you who cry 'childish' every time Geraint or anyone else show some political ideology are falling for the mushy mentality in evidence in the Welsh media in the past few weeks.

I accept that Tories are not beasts or demons - I know lots, and many of them are decent people who I enjoy going down the pub with.

But I wouldn't work in a Government with them, because our political ideologies clash, and neither of us would think it 'best for Wales' to let the others into government. That's not childish, that's sticking to our honestly held principles and doing what's right to put them into practice.

 
At 6:38 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tony,

Geraint has admitted he was deliberately trying to wind us up.

Now leave us to imagine he is a nice chap, really.

 
At 6:42 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tony - have you actually read the rainbow document? It's not as if the Tories are going to demand that the coalition bring back the 11 plus or ban Welsh or anything.

Perhaps the naysayers will tell us how the document clashes with their "principles" - of course the language clauses will clash with the anti-Welsh language prejudices of some of the Nat bashers in the Labour ranks.

 
At 6:42 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Geraint said...
Anon 2:58 PM

The fact it that the Rainbow coaltion was dead for the foreseable future after Wednesday, the mness caused by that would take months to sort out, if ever. You may want another election, but the Welsh public do not.

johnny says....

Geraint, How do you know that the Welsh public don't want another election? Have you asked them?

No, but I strongly suspect that Plaid would be petrified of another election so soon after betrayal of their voters, who believed that Plaid is a Socialist party.

By cozying up to the Tories they have clearly shown that they crave power at ANY cost to their integrity. They just don't care.

As a former bookmaker and insurance agent I can assure readers that odds and premiums are set on the basis of 'form' or past history. On what is known and not on what is believed or hoped for.

Well, we all know what Plaid was founded on, don't we?

Yes, that's right. Treachery, crime and hatred, particularly of English children.

I say again. Plaid needs to reform itself into a party for Wales as a whole. To abandon its Nationalistic aspirations, back off a bit on Welsh Language issues and become a bit more friendly and outgoing.

They should disassociate themselves from their founder's previous actions and state publicly that he was plain wrong. That they have learned lessons and now wish to embrace the whole of Wales and learn to love the English.

Having been rudely dealt with on this blog by the Nats. I can state from my experiences on this blog, that there is a definite taste of nastiness from the Nats. particularly towards those who disagree with them. Don't worry though boys, I've dealt with worse.

I daresay that if I turned up at a Nat. meeting and joined the debate I would probably be lucky to get out alive.

On the other hand if I went to a LibDem meeting they would probably just ask me if I would like a nice cup of tea.

Anyway who's for a fresh election where the poor old long-suffering voter can have another go at putting Plaid out of their misery?

Your predictable pal.

johnny.

 
At 6:56 pm, Blogger Guto said...

"predictable" being the correct term

 
At 7:05 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Johnny

Now if I remember this:

"Well, we all know what Plaid was founded on, don't we? Yes, that's right. Treachery, crime and hatred, particularly of English children."

routine of yours goes back to Saunders Lewis opposing evacuees being brought in large numbers into Welsh speaking heartlands. Well that was in the 1940s so it can hardly be said that Plaid was founded on this. Never mind, facts are not your strong point.

We all know I guess that many of the leading members of Mosley's British Union of Fascists and National Socialists were former Labour MPs and candidates. We should know that although Nye Bevan did not leave the party he was one of Mosley's most ardent supporters before the split.

We know that the socialist ILP, the Communists and Trotskyites and the Peace Pledge Union all campaigned for a capitulation to Hitler and Nazism in 1940. We also know that certain Tory grandees also sought a negotiated peace and that individual Tory MPS were fiercely anti-Jewish.

That was then, this is now. I'm an English speaker like you Johnny, I know that if I am stopped by the police or have to deal with officials from central and local government, I can do so without any hassle in my own language. I think that my Welsh speaking neighbours and friends should be able to do so just as easily and naturally in their own language.

Do you agree with that, or are your views touched with the same prejudices you condemn in others?

 
At 7:08 pm, Blogger Cymro said...

No, guto, I think you;re wrong and johnny is dead right. I am a Nat and therefore a soulless monster. I hate the English utterly. In fact, I eat their children for breakfast,

My political beliefs are few and do not include anything other than banning English and forcing everybody to speak Welsh, and complete independence for Wales, to the point that nobody who has an Anglo-Saxon genetic make-up can live in Wales. We're a crazy lot.

 
At 7:27 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

the foreigner said:

///Well, we all know what Plaid was founded on, don't we?

Yes, that's right. Treachery, crime and hatred, particularly of English children.///

That is not true. You made it up. Consider why so many English children have gone through Welsh Medium schools in the last 40 years.

///I say again. Plaid needs to reform itself into a party for Wales as a whole. To abandon its Nationalistic aspirations, back off a bit on Welsh Language issues and become a bit more friendly and outgoing. ///

To start, who ate your porridge this morning?
What do you want Plaid to be? A social club?
Forget the world nationalist and think love of land and culture instead. Language comes in there too but as the population is always changing there are always thousands learning the language. Not all in wales, all over Britain.

The language is not a political tool, many in the other parties speak Welsh, it is an offical language.

The National Urdd Eisteddfod is in Carmarthen next week. If you go there you'll find friendliness and a big welcome, even though you don't speak welsh.

 
At 8:19 pm, Blogger Cymro said...

Johnny, I think the argument has been put much better by others than my sarcastic response. But to sum up, Plaid are a centre-left party who believe in progressive change delivering social justice for all the people of Wales. We also believe that the Welsh language and culture should be treated as equal to the English language - for a great many, including myself, it is their first language and expressing oourselves in Welsh comes naturally.

We don't loathe the English, many of my friends and a branch of my family are English. Nor should we learn to love them, we stopped doing that around 500 years ago! In fact, our AM for the North, Janet Ryder, is English. Yes, I have poured scorn on your argument in the past - which was a deliberately provocative comment that Welsh was not acceptable in public, as I recall.

That response was based on your argument, not what language you speak or which race you belong to. You would have received the same response from me if you had said that Swahili or black skin were unacceptable in public.

 
At 8:27 pm, Blogger Geraint said...

By the way, I am sorry for my earlier comments in reguards to the Tories, it was immature. However Labour and Tory members hate each others idealogy if not each other personally. If such a thing as idealogy still exisits, yet alone if it is different.
Reguardless, I apologise again.

 
At 8:42 pm, Anonymous Daran said...

"Your list of the Lib Dem executive is wrong, you have listed at least one person who is not a member of it and possibly more.(I can't quite remember)."

and

"This discussion is quite sensible actually. If the Lib Dems don't know who's in charge of the party, how is anyone else to know?"

The original thread here is important. The Liberal Democrat executive is accountable and should be clearly identifiable. The Lib Dems are usually quite free and easy with disclosing party roles - it's part of the psychology and openness. If there are errors (and I notice you don't illuminate which they are) then I'd expect them to be corrected. Surely you're not suggesting that the Welsh party is deliberately concealing its executive member list?

When I say the Lib Dem exec is accountable, I of course don't mean to readers or writers of this blog. Indeed, they may not be accountable to the electorate at large, but they surely are accountable to their own electorate - the membership of the Liberal Democrats.

Presumably if Lib Dem members have one question at the moment - and at any future exec election - it would be to ask any candidate "What did you do in the war of 07?" If the party remains as divided as it now seems, that would surely be the key issue for potential electors when choosing their next executive.

Perhaps there is an accurate list of Exec members on the "Members only" part of the Lib Dem site. If there is, then that would satisfy their core responsibility to their membership.

If there isn't and members too have an out-of-date list then the charitable interpretation would be to say that the webmasters had been too busy with more pressing business (the election, forming or not forming a government) to update the site. That is perfectly understandable and the priorities would be right.

And therefore Blamerbell should not be condemned for relying on public party sources for his executive list. He asks a very important question in seeking to identify which side of the fence party officers fell; and one which Lib Dem members are and will ask too.

The only other explanation would be that the party is deliberately misleading members and outside observers. I don't think that's what's going on, but Anon 5.12 isn't helping his party (I presume he's a member) by trying to deflect attention from a legitimate question: "Who are the members of the Liberal Democrat Executive and which way did the members vote on Wednesday?"

I've heard this question posed many times in political circles over the past few days. And a few of the people asking that question have been Lib Dems themselves...

 
At 9:04 pm, Blogger Cymro said...

Geraint, I welcome that apology. Yes, I agree that some sort of hatred, for want of a better word, exists between left and right ideologies. I think what you are saying thet the ideologies are not compatible - and some ideas from one side seem repugnant to the other,

That is the case with politics all over the world. But other countries have learned to rise above party enmity and reach a drive forward by consensus. Wales should do the same. When Plaid, Labour or Tories disagree we make that clear - when we are in agreement, we get on with things and do what's best for Wales.

 
At 11:58 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Guto said...
"predictable" being the correct term

johnny says....

Consistency...a great quality.

Nonny 1. said....

"Well, we all know what Plaid was founded on, don't we? Yes, that's right. Treachery, crime and hatred, particularly of English children."

routine of yours goes back to Saunders Lewis opposing evacuees being brought in large numbers into Welsh speaking heartlands. Well that was in the 1940s so it can hardly be said that Plaid was founded on this. Never mind, facts are not your strong point.

Nonny 2. said...

That is not true. You made it up. Consider why so many English children have gone through Welsh Medium schools in the last 40 years.

jf..... Now come on boys, make your minds up.

Face up to it. It happened. Plaid seem to think that they can just airbrush this disgraceful act from history.

It's certainly worked on Nonny 2.

My constant reminders re: Saunders Lewis are to hopefully inform those who are not aware of this shameful act.

How's about one of you Nats. saying that you recall the incident and wish to disassociate yourself from it. It's a start.

I am not expecting much, but please don't deny it.

Nonny 1. says.....

I know that if I am stopped by the police or have to deal with officials from central and local government, I can do so without any hassle in my own language. I think that my Welsh speaking neighbours and friends should be able to do so just as easily and naturally in their own language.


jf....Unfortunately, whilst Welsh may be their first language, ALL Welsh speakers speak and understand English. Consequently, you would wish that ALL Police and Government Officers be bi-lingual.

This certainly severely restricts the talent pool for recruitment. Presumably a highly skilled and qualified monoglot applicant for any job in these areas would be rejected in favour of a less qualified bi-lingual applicant.

Nonny 2. says...


The National Urdd Eisteddfod is in Carmarthen next week. If you go there you'll find friendliness and a big welcome, even though you don't speak welsh.


jf..... Well my experience at an Eisteddfod at Cardiff Bay was a little different. I asked for directions on at least three occasions from stewards in English and was met with a look of derision and responded to in Welsh. I explained that I could not understand what they had said. Two of these people then had the temerity to suggest in English that I learn Welsh so that I could partake fully in the event. How rude.

FFS. I only wanted a piss.

I resisted the temptation to use some traditional Anglo-Saxon as response and asked an African man and his wife and was directed with courtesy. 'Nuff said.

Cymro says....

Plaid are a centre-left party.......

jf........who wish to go into a Rainbow Coalition with the Tories.

Hardly "centre left".

Cymro also said...

Yes, I have poured scorn on your argument in the past - which was a deliberately provocative comment that Welsh was not acceptable in public, as I recall.

jf.....Your memory fails you Cymro. I have never said anything of the sort. I simply object to the constant insistence that Welsh be used by the general public when there is no real wish to do so. Please don't mention Welsh Schools either as the real reason for there popularity is the smaller class sizes.

In my, not inconsiderable cash dealings with the Welsh speaking fraternity I have yet to come across one that insisted talking CASH BUSINESS in Welsh.

Plaid's closet insistence (no, we haven't forgotten the word 'compel') that businesses in Wales should conduct their affairs in Welsh will surely cost us dearly.

I can just imagine Ieuan animatedly insisting to Mr. Sony or Ms. Mitubishi that unless they conduct their business in Welsh that they will not be permitted to employ thousands of loyal Welsh speakers.

This blog seems to have a slight air of contrition this evening so, in order not to feel left out, I would state the following.

I sincerely hope that I have not offended any of you with my strongly held views which are purely based on my own knowledge and experience. If I have then I wonder why?

I have been treated rudely by some and politely by others and I try to deal with all in a forthright yet courteous manner.

My views are echoed by many in Wales although they don't make so much noise about it as the Nats.

It has even been suggested that the Welsh Language is tantamount to a Tax on the Welsh as the massive cost of its contrived preservation is vastly out-weighed by its necessary usage.

Speak English and Save the World........In fact it might even save Wales.

Your precipitous pal.

johnny.

 
At 12:27 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

jf said:
///I sincerely hope that I have not offended any of you with my strongly held views which are purely based on my own knowledge and experience. If I have then I wonder why? ///

Has it occured to you how tolerant we have been of your attention seeking diatribes? There must be blog somewhere that will accommodate troubled personalities who try and focus their angst on politicial lists. Making nuisances of themselves.


Thanks for the attempt at apologising. I think many of us will appreciate it.

 
At 12:46 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

jonny foreigner;
....How's about one of you Nats. saying that you recall the incident and wish to disassociate yourself from it. It's a start....

I and most here were not born then. Do you mean Plaid when you say Nats? Or are you a little bit drunk? IIRC, (because I was an activist in other parties then) Plaid cymru developed during the time of Gwynfor Evans, and there might be someone here who can give more accurate details. It has for a long time a tolerant and accommodating party.

 
At 1:19 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Johnny's obsession with the evacuees of getting on for 70, that's right seventy, years ago originates with a speech Llew Smith made a few years ago when he hijacked a debate on racism in Wales to indulge himself in one of his bilious attacks.

Paul Flynn described it as an inflammatory and ill-informed speech, although it went down rather well with Wayne David and Don Touhig.......mmh, maybe Johnny is Llew Smith.

Anyway our precious pal complains of being treated rudely while at the same time remarking quite casually that it is unfortunate that that some have Welsh as their first language. LOL.

 
At 1:21 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Johnny's boring now, and his posts are too long.

 
At 3:01 am, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Hello Nonnys.

Thanks for your reasonably polite comments.

Having re-read my previous prodigious post I must say that I did go on a bit. So much to say.

Nevertheless, I take the point and in future, after this post, will be a little more succinct.

(Thanks to Blamer for your indulgence and patience).

Notwithstanding the lengths of my postings I think that I have made my point and that we have got to know each other a little better. You know my opinion, I know yours. Hey! we're communicating.

I have been accused of attention seeking.

What on Earth are the rest of you doing then? You certainly gained my attention and I have gained yours.

As some of you will appreciate from my previous posts my condemnation of Plaid's founder has a personal basis.

I appreciate that many of the younger Plaid supporters may have been unaware of this part of the history of Plaid and hopefully will disassociate themselves from that PARTICULAR aspect.

I will take it on your word that Plaid is now a "tolerant and accomodating" party and will cease forthwith from resurrecting the spectre of Saunders Lewis to haunt you.

It seems to me that you, as a Party, would wish to move on and hopefully become representative of a broader section of Society and to that end I will join your debate.

As a matter of interest, I wonder if your party would accept a member with such firmly held beliefs as mine?

I would love to join and hopefullly change your policies from within.

Just HOW tolerant and accomodating are you?

Finally, please let me make it quite clear that I have no wish to prevent anyone from speaking which ever language that they wish.

With regard to the Welsh language my main criticism is the vast amount of public money and environmental resource that is wasted in artificial support of the language.

Let the Language stand on its own two feet.

My only other objection is that, when a universal language is being spoken in company, some Welsh speakers fail to show common courtesy by interjecting in Welsh without the benefit of a translation. Manners please.

I have noticed that since I have raised objections to this lack of courtesy that no Welsh Language postings have been made in response to mine.

I thank you for that kind consideration.

Go on Guto....spoil it.....you little scamp.


Your potentially Plaid pal.

johnny.

 
At 8:36 am, Anonymous Nonny said...

Johnny, you're making a bit of an assumption assuming that all of your Nonny - I like that - sparring pals are Plaid supporters, why even the Tories have signed up to this bilingual nation which you find so aggravating in your declining years. Never mind.

Keep on pressing the buttons, I don't think you've used the "I walked into a taverna in Patagonia and they stopped speaking Spanish and started speaking Welsh" line yet. Nor the "I received a letter in Welsh from the council so I wrote back in Urdu which I learnt to speak fluently in my army days." Two old favourites of mine.

Joining Plaid Cymru? In the immortal words of Dylan - Bob not the Taff one:

"You got a lotta nerve, to say you got a helping hand to lend. You just want to be on the side that's winning."

 
At 1:13 pm, Blogger Guto said...

I see where you're coming from with your complain t about people speaking Welsh in the company of monoglots, but it does depend on the circumstances.

If I'm out with monoglot and bilingual friends the conversation of the group is English, but if I want to say something seperate to one of the bilingual people who I'm used to speaking with in Welsh, I'll do so in Welsh. It's unbelievably uncomfortable to talk to someone in a language other than the one you're used to speaking with them in.

So when people do speak top each other in Welsh in front of you, they're not being nasty or impolite (for the most part, I'm sure some people do!) that's just what comes natural to them, and whatever theyre saying they probably dont see it as a group conversation anyway, just something between them and their friend.

Oh and don't worry, everyone's welcome to join, there's no test as to how many Welsh words you can say in one breath!

 
At 1:43 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

anyone out there with info on Rhodri's short term cabinet? I guess it'll just be the same faces moved about a bit...AD for finance, JD for Culture, CJ for Enterprise...is there any chance of a new face or two?

 
At 3:17 pm, Blogger Cymro said...

Johnny, you said that people should be wary of speaking or commenting in Welsh in public. I understood your difficulty, but it was tantamount to saying that Welsh was not acceptable in public.
Guto made the point above really.

Just to illustrate, let's assume you speak English and French, say. Now, you are sitting in a pub with a few mates and your wife, and chatting away. It's easy to ask your wife, in French, to get something from the car, or tell her that your elephant is blue or something. But how easy is it to have a complicated or deep conversation with her in French? How easy is it to say 'I love you' or similar, when you're both not entirely comfortable in French?

I would argue that there is a general wish for public services to cater in Welsh. When using services, I and other Welsh-language speakers find ourselves to be much more comfortable if we can use our first language. Most people recognise that, and are happy for business and government to cater bilingually.

If you wish to join Plaid, then go ahead. A majority of us think that independence is the best way to bring about a socially democratic Wales. Others think autonomy is the way to go. And others think differently.

So if you want to express yourself in Plaid, you are more than welcome. We are home to Welsh speakers, English speakers - people of all skin colours, religions, sexual orientations, ages and degrees of physical ability.

If I, or any other "Nats", have been a bit short with you in the past, I sincerely apologise. It's just that Plaid has become one of the most accepting and diverse political parties in Wales, campaigning and fighting for social justice and equality. When you paint us as small-minded, racist goons, it does get us going a bit!

 
At 3:42 pm, Blogger Aberavon & Neath Liberal Democrats said...

It seems to me that the way is open for Plaid to re-energise the coalition by coming back to the LibDem executive. The latter will surely take note of a very representative LibDem Special Conference last Saturday.

Some of the people responsible for that executive decision spoke on Saturday. The conspiracy theories (Nick Bourne: certain people in mid-Wales wanting to advance their careers; various media pundits: it was to force Mike German out) were wide of the mark. The doubters had genuine reasons.

The Tories are up for it; LibDems want to make it work, even those of us who voted against; when does IWJ want to drop the sword of Damocles on Rhodri?

- Frank Little

 
At 4:28 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

With a Hey and a Hoh and a Hey Nonny NO.

I don't have a real problem with bilingualism it's just that I object to paying for it when it serves me no purpose. I can hardly object to people choosing to speak Welsh but in practical terms English is such a more useful language.

Welsh has been propped up for years by throwing millions of British pounds at its promotion and it still doesn't work. The Language is in decline. Just listen to virtually any Welsh conversation and you wil find it liberally sprinkled with English phrases.

Classical Welsh obviously needs to be preserved for posterity but I think that the way forward for Welsh is to adhere to the One Rule of Nature that appllies to ALL things......Adapt or Die.

It has been suggested on this blog that Wenglish may be the way to go.

In fact I was listening to some Welsh speaking youngsters the other day and their conversation was so full of English phrases that with my smattering of Welsh and comprehensive knowledge of English I was able to understand what was being said.

If it works for me it can certainly work for the whole of Wales.

Oh look! I've just found the Patagonia button.

It has crossed my mind that when the Welsh migrants to Patagonia arrived, did the indigenous Patagonians describe them as 'incomers', pour scorn on them and decry them for not speaking Spanish? Or did they permit them to set up their own enclave and carry on speaking Welsh even until today?

Why should English residents of Wales be treated differently?

Just a thought.

In final deference to your musical guru:

"I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
And just for that one moment
I could be you".

Your punctilious pal.

johnny.

 
At 5:06 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Guto:

Thank you for your words of understanding. At least I haven't been boring you.

It's comforting to see that there are still people around who are able to engage in polite conversation without resorting to abuse.

You understand me and I understand you. Isn't communication a wonderful thing?

I would dearly love a party to arise in Wales that would shake off the nationalistic aspirations and work towards being an integral part of the UK, to be part of a greater whole.

The Union has stood us in good stead for a long time and has given us the prosperity and security that we have today.

Cymru yn yr Deyrnas Dynedig am Byth.

Your predominantly patriotic pal.

johnny.

 
At 5:10 pm, Blogger Dylan said...

The part of Patagonia where the Welsh set up camp was apparently previously uninhabited (mostly because the land there was so shit)

 
At 5:15 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

In terms of a rainbow coalition, Plaid have a lot more to lose than the other parties which is why they should move slowly now that there is no time limit.

As a party, they also have to allow for the inevitable damage done working with the Tories. Plaid will certanly not take any orders from the Lib Dems, who change their position more often than I change my underpants.

 
At 5:23 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

JF said:

"""Oh look! I've just found the Patagonia button.""""


yeaaaah!!! Bye bye :-)

 
At 5:27 pm, Blogger Cymro said...

Johnny, the adapt or die rule is fair enough. But why not apply this to English where most teenagers write text-speak. Do we bin the language because people like using mobile phones? Yes, teenagers use incorrect language - big suprise! In Gwynedd, 80% of us speak Welsh - most business is conducted in Welsh, life is lived in Welsh. If that's not practical, then what is?

 
At 5:30 pm, Blogger Cymro said...

Yes, anon, Lib Dems change their minds a lot. But I'd hate to think what your underpants are like...

 
At 5:50 pm, Blogger Guto said...

Johnny, you really will not gain any friends by saying things like "English is a much more practical and useful language"! We can speak English, and when needs be we do speak English (look! I'm writing in it now!). Being bilingual means the best of both worlds

I don't gain from the state paying out jobseekers allowance, housing benefits, grants to small businesses in the Rhondda or the better train link to Cardiff Airport - they serve me no purpose. I still don't want them to not be funded by the government though!

Welsh is our first language and the language we are most comfortable in. A monoglot doesn't understand how annoying it is not be able to do dimple things in everyday life in that language.

As for Patagonia the Welsh settlers were invited over by the Argentine government and given uninhabited land and their kids and kids' kids speak Welsh AND Spanish- there's no similarity.

 
At 6:11 pm, Blogger Cymro said...

Johnny, is it possible to establish what you mean by saying that English is a more practical and useful language? In Germany and France, there have been many complaints about young people using English slang interspersed with their vocabulary. Do you wish to tell the Franch and Germans that their languages are impractical and useless?

China will soon be the world's largest economy and it will be practical for all business to take place in Mandarin. By your argument, should we ditch English and Welsh for Mandarin?

 
At 6:22 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Since Johnny has turned the conversation in the direction of language...

I'm an English-speaking monoglot but I'm pro-bilingualism to the extent that I'd happily vote for all schools in Wales being forced to go bilingual by law. I have no complaint with the amount of money being spent on promoting Welsh, nor do I see it as 'propping the language up'. Welsh has shown it's perfectly capable of surviving without state aid, for the very good reason that the west-coast strip from Gwynedd to Carmarthenshire speaks Welsh as the first language.

However. I do have a gripe with the way Welsh has been promoted in the east. The emphasis has been on making roadsigns, official forms, goods in shops, etc. bilingual. When you think about it, the logic behind that is that Welsh speakers should be able to go anywhere in Wales and use the Welsh language.

Shouldn't the emphasis have been more on actually teaching the people of east Wales how to speak Welsh? Even now, Welsh-language schools are thin on the ground, but when I was growing up the 60s they were simply non-existent.

Yet the first push of the Welsh language movement was to cater for those who already spoke the language. I think it may have been a strategic mistake, and it is the single biggest reason for the dislike of Welsh shown by people like Johnny Foreigner. It's the frustration of being surrounded by a language without being given the tools to learn it. And here's the twist: it's YOUR language, and you can't even speak it.

Could you imagine a set of circumstances more likely to make people feel linguistically-inadequate? Was it not obvious that putting Welsh in people's faces without teaching them how to understand it would lead to resentment?

 
At 6:48 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mandarin is not even the most popular language in China, so there's not much of an argument for adopting it instead of English.

 
At 6:51 pm, Anonymous Nonny said...

Good Old Johnny - I'd forgotten "the Welsh is so full of English words" and "the Welsh don't have a word for ...." buttons.

More please. Eventually you'll repeat every chauvinistic anti-Welsh cliche I've ever had the misfortune of hearing during the second half of the twentieth century and future historians will thank you.

 
At 6:54 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Johnny, you are Llew Smith and I claim my £10

 
At 7:27 pm, Blogger Cymro said...

Anonymous, Mandarin is the official language of the People's Republic of China. Most of the East Asian population speak some variant of Mandarin - nearly a billion people in total.

 
At 7:34 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

'Mandarin' is spoken in China in much the same way as 'Germanic' is spoken in northern Europe. There are lots of languages under the Mandarin umbrella and by no means can the people of China be said to have a common language.

 
At 7:42 pm, Blogger Cymro said...

I'm not going to debate that - China has a great many languages, in its many regions. However, Standard Mandarin is the official language in which the government and all public outlets operate - not by the choice of China's people, of course. Big business works in Mandarin.

To get back to the point that Johnny made, it would be practical if Welsh and English were ditched for Mandarin. Is that what he'd argue for?

 
At 7:46 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

But it wouldn't be practical, because you're wrong about Mandarin. And in any case, Johnny is debating a choice between the two indigenous languages in Wales. You are advocating the widespread adoption of the Chinese equivalent of Latin in our small island on the other side of the planet.

 
At 7:55 pm, Blogger Cymro said...

I'm quite right actually - Standard Mandarin is the official language of the People's Republic of China. It is the language used in the education system, and all other government business. It has around 900 million speakers. Each region does have its own language - Standard Mandarin is the 'standard'.

The discussion of the roots of Mandarin was your choice. What I was saying, in response to Johnny's claim that English is more useful and practical than Welsh, was that since China will soon lead the world economy, it would be practical for us all to speak Standard Mandarin rather than anything else.

 
At 8:01 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Leaving aside our disagreement on the status of Mandarin, then, do you not see the difference between a) discussing which of two indigenous languages is more readily understood in the wider world, and b) advocating that we change our official language everytime a new power emerges in the global economy?

Someone accused Johnny of having stereotyped arguments against Welsh. I'm afriad 'Let's all go and learn Chinese then!' is one of the stereotyped Welsh arguments against English.

 
At 8:35 pm, Blogger Cymro said...

I think that it's one and the same argument. Johnny is saying that there is a socio-economic advantage in letting Welsh die, and switching to English. In about 10 years, there will be an advantage in ditching English for Standard Mandarin, or whichever Chinese language you would argue for.

 
At 8:48 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Good-bye Nonny, good-bye Nonny, be good!.

Thank you Cymro and Guto for your reasoned comments.

Cymro:

Your point re: mobile text speak is well taken. Young people seem to be in such a rush that the vowels seem to have been abandoned. It wouldn't surprise me that if with the predictive text technology that soon they will be able to text using single letters.

This, of course, is self-defeating as eventually communication would break down on the basis of mutual misunderstanding.

Here in the massive urban conurbation Welsh is rarely heard. Unless you go to the leafy glades of Pontcanna in Cardiff where you will sometimes hear the merry chatter in Welsh. Although it is frequently a decibel or two louder than surrounding conversation.

It also becomes apparent that the only people speaking Welsh all fall into predictable categories. They're in the 'media', BBC, ITV, Wales and S4C presumably analogue and digidol. Others are from the 'arts' and the Assembly.

The vast majority, whether or not they have the least knowledge of Welsh, use English as their language of choice. This truth I find to be self-evident.

Your further coment regarding French and german speakers merely re-enforces my point. Welsh, French or German, it's English that creeps in.

Presumably, it is the bastardization of the language that you and the French and Germans object to.

This just goes to show that the bastardization is being carried out by the biggest bastard language of them all: English. It adapts and prolongs its life.

Your panoglotic pal.

johnny.

 
At 8:51 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"...and switching to English"...?

We already speak English! It's been an official language in Wales for hundreds of years and everyone speaks it, bar a handful of very recent immigrants.

20 % of people in Wales are English. Many more have an English parent or grandparent. English is the only language widely spoken in the other two parts of our island, England and Scotland.

I have a lot of sympathy with many pro-Welsh arguments, and I certainly don't agree with Johnny's views on Welsh. But the Mandarin/English comparison doesn't seem convincing, personally...

 
At 8:55 pm, Blogger Guto said...

The simple response to the argument of "Welsh just uses English words" is to quote this brilliant passage from a blog I found (Banksy's Blog).....

The English can dine in a restaurant, a la carte on a smorgasbord of, whelks, yoghurt, mousse and fromage frais. Or you might simply sip a latte or a lager in a café and you would still be speaking the Queen’s English.

You could live in a bijou hacienda in a cul-de-sac or plaza, perhaps even a bungalow or a chalet. If your tastes were grander perhaps a place with a concierge or a verandah and naturally its bidet and sauna would be en suite. It would come complete with an au pair and you’d still be speaking the Queen’s English.

You could cover your body with tattoos if that wasn’t taboo and the language you would be using would still be QE.

You might be clothed in a bra, bikini, knickers, bandoleer and culottes, shod in espadrilles, wearing jodhpurs coloured khaki and a kaftan woven from calico or chintz. You might look a bit avant garde, but you would be speaking the Queen’s English.

If animals were your forte you could go on safari to spot penguins, canaries or cockatoos and corgis or even take in a gymkhana or polo match.
An Englishman can take to the road in a diesel-powered juggernaut and even tow a caravan before stopping off at an oasis and the language he would be using would be the Queen’s.

If you were a bit of a thug you might cause a fracas or even mount a coup d’etat to dispose of the ancien regime just like the tsars, and the clique convicted on a dodgy dossier of evidence would be put to the guillotine.

If you were of a more nautical bent you could sail your flotilla, or even an armada or catamarans before putting into a marina.
If the wanderlust seizes you, you could schlep your way to your destination and if you started to perspire then a dab of cologne or eau de toilette will sort it out.
If you were some sort of wunderkind you could tot up the cost of a devastating tsunami using an abacus though pundits might frown if you showed any schadenfreude in the wake of the disaster.

To make the peace you might hold a powwow, but if that didn’t work you could always engage the services of an assassin or mount a guerrilla campaign, naturally using the Queen’s English.
If the cold wind blows then you’ve a choice of anorak, parka or a cagoule to keep out the chill and you’d still be speaking the Queen’s English.

You might think this column a little bizarre or even poppycock, but it’s because there’s a bonanza of words in English that started off their lives not being English and which the English just purloined along the way.
You could in fact spend your whole day speaking English, but using words that weren’t English and if you ran out of steam and feared you might be incommunicado then you simply filibuster.
You see languages don’t work well if they’re subject to some sort of linguistic apartheid, it’s the ability to assimilate others that makes them so strong.
It’s part of the reason that English has become a sort of lingua franca, as it were, it has given it its strength and its enduring character.

There is an irony to those who snigger at the Welsh snaffling a modern word here or there, when English has plundered other languages just as the Empire expanded. They are rightly proud of the language used by Shakespeare, or the Bard, as he is known, a word they stole from the Welsh.

So in answer to those who think toiledau is linguistic larceny, I would point out that today’s column has been brought to you courtesy of Algonquin, Dutch, Eskimo, Egyptian, Finnish, French, German, Hindi, Italian, Norwegian, Portuguese, Russian, Spanish, Swahili, Tahitian, Tamil, Tibetan, Tongan, Turkish, Urdu, Yiddish and of course, Welsh, and every word of it the Queen’s English.
And that’s just the tip of the iceberg (Dutch ).

 
At 9:08 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

On the Chinese question I would merely say that as China is one of the most rapidly growing economies on the planet the Welsh had better get in a few Mandarin speakers as you can be quite sure that the Chinese will have no need of Welsh speakers in their business discussions.

Let's keep up with the rest of the World.

Learn Mandarin and Save the Planet and Wales.

Your precatory pal.

johnny

 
At 9:15 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Guto said....

"The English can dine in a restaurant, a la carte on a smorgasbord of, whelks, yoghurt, mousse and fromage frais. Or you might simply sip a latte or a lager in a café and you would still be speaking the Queen’s English."

My point exactly.

What a bunch of bastardizers English speakers are.

Adapt or Die.

Your adaptable pal.

johnny.

 
At 9:20 pm, Blogger Guto said...

Well that's exactly what Welsh has done. We've stolen ambiwlans from the English who stole it from the Greeks!

 
At 9:22 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Blimey Guto,

I thought that I went on a bit.

That's one hell of a cut and paste.

Well done!

Great post.

Your probabilistic pal.

johnny.

 
At 11:58 pm, Blogger Mike Cridland said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 1:20 am, Blogger Mike Cridland said...

Well! I have never seen a thread quite go out on a tangent as this one. certain topic change so radically. From discussing who did what at a Lib Dem NEC meeting to discussing death of the welsh language.

My that's one for the Guinness Book of Records.

BTW Johnny Foreigner can you make a point without writing more than one paragraph. I read one of your comments, and my hair was turning grey!!

"BTW Saunders Lewis was a Nazi and I knew it for fact"

I realize that you did not say that, but maybe implied it a little bit.

Can you provide some source that I can refer to when researching this?

Unless point was merely polemical

Your unpolemic pal! Mike

 
At 2:02 am, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

The language issue underpins much of what is going on in Welsh politics today. It cannot be ignored.

There is a clear call from Plaid for a new Welsh Language Act which will compel more use of Welsh whether we like it or not.

The Saunders Lewis anti-evacuation campaign was taught to me at my Mother's knee, and although I do not to hand a specific literary reference I have no doubt as to its authenticity when viewed along with the Nats. activities around WW11. Try Wiki or answers.com there should be plenty there.

I am pretty sure that had Hitler's proposed invasion of the UK suceeded he would have had little trouble finding plenty of 'Quislings' amongst the Nats.

Please note that I use the term Nats. in a friendly yet abbreviated form of Welsh Nationalists.

As the Saunders Lewis issue has aroused a lot of emnity on this blog and Plaid members assure me that they are now a reformed Party of tolerance and inclusion I have promised to drop the matter for the sake of probity and to engender a more friendly atmosphere. I ask you to join me.

I have struck a few 'raw nerves' since joining this Blog and have received a variety of responses. The historical praise and support for Hitler and the clear anti-semitic views of Plaid's founder have engendered a deep mistrust of nationalism amonst many but I am assured by many here that Plaid wishes to move on and embrace more of Wales.

Unfortunately, they still seem to be still conspiring to bring in their ridiculous Rainbow Coalition.

This, I would remind you, is a Centre Left Party cozying up with a Centre Right Party to bring down another Centre Left Party.

Do you see what I mean?

Hardly keeping faith with their core voters.

Your particularly polemic pal.

johnny.

 
At 9:00 am, Anonymous nonny said...

OK as Johnny doesn't seem to have any facts I'll try to help.

In one line of a single poem from the 30s attacking Wall Street capitalism Lewis uses the term Hebrew snouts. Lewis also wrote plays against the Nazis and with pro-Jewish themes but yes but that one line is certainly anti-semitic.

Saunders Lewis also argued for a policy of Welsh neutrality during the Second World War. Plaid Cymru campaigned against the government's forced expulsion of the population of the Welsh-speaking Epynt district in Mid-Wales. No doubt their peaceful campaign hindered the war effort in some small way. Epynt is still a military training area by the way and it's people never returned to their homes.

I am quite willing to accept that Johnny is right when he says that Welsh Namtionalists campaigned against the movement of schools from England into Welsh-speaking districts. Johnny assumes that this meant that the nationalists wanted these children to remain in the bombed cities rather than finding shelter in safe parts of England.

Would individual Welsh Nationalists have acted as Quislings? I think given the Breton experience the answer is yes. The Germans allowed Breton radio, newspapers and schools to flourish something that the French had never done, they also had plans to allow the establishment of an independent Brittany. So numbers of Bretons nationalists - not all - did support Germmany against France.

BTW Johnny relying on wikipedia and its offspring is not a very reliable way of arriving at the truth.

 
At 3:15 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Thank you Nonny for your able assistance. You are obviously well researched and know more than I of the Nationalistic treachery that took place around the War years.

It has always bothered me that the Welsh Nationalists supported Hitler and that SL had obviously racist thoughts as you have borne out with your comment re: Hebrew snouts.

Whilst I have a grudging admiration for the man's literary achievements and his commitment to his Nationalistic cause, I feel that his treachery if left unchecked would have resulted in untold misery for those that failed to support his perverted cause. My family included.

It seems to me that Ieuan Wyn Jones and his alleged Socialist Centre Left Party now seeks to cozy up with a Centre Right Party to bring about the downfall of a fellow Centre Left Party.

Old habits die hard.

Your providential pal.

johnny.

BTW, your Wiki comment is noted.

 
At 5:38 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said...

JF:

//It seems to me that Ieuan Wyn Jones and his alleged Socialist Centre Left Party now seeks to cozy up with a Centre Right Party to bring about the downfall of a fellow Centre Left Party. //

Do you make these misinformed statements to offend and taunt?

Or are you simply trying to take this thread to a hundred at any cost?

 
At 6:08 pm, Anonymous Nonny said...

Johnny - you make something of a leap of logic when you say that the neutrality policy of some Welsh Nationalists during the Second World War can be described as support for Hitler. Perhaps like George W. Bush or Lenin you believe in the dictum "those who are not for us are against us." If that is the case Eire, Sweden and Switzerland all supported Hitler.

You also use the word treachery. If someone believes in Welsh Independence how can they be guilty of treachery to a British state to which they have never pledged allegience or wanted to be a part of? The position of Saunders Lewis is I agree ambigious since as a former Army officer he may well have taken an oath of allegience to the English king.

 
At 8:24 pm, Blogger Peter Black said...

You have missed off Jenny Willott Mp who represents the Parliamentarians. All those AMs who are members of the NEC used their vote. I am not sure if Dominic Hannigan is a member or not, I thought the MIDR Cymru member was Tom Stubbs, who was absent on Wednesday as he is completing his MA.

Once you add Jenny in then all nine of the no voters are listed. I am not giving any secrets away by telling you that Jenny voted no as she told the special conference as much. Alison Goldsworthy, Michael Woods and Aled Morris Jones all spoke against the coalition at the conference.

 
At 11:15 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Anonymous said....

"Do you make these misinformed statements to offend and taunt?"

No just a simple question.

How can Socialist Centre Left join with Centre Right to defeat fellow Centre Left?

Your patient pal.

johnny.

 
At 11:29 pm, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

A totally logical leap IMHO.

If the Enemy threatens imminent invasion and you find out that there are a bunch of Nationalists who wish to declare their 'neutrality' in a part of the Country without borders my strategy would be to round them up and intern them until the end of hostilities.

At a time of War, a country cannot afford to have self-styled Neutrals who have a record of calling for independence from the Union to be free to spread their 'Neutrality' when our lives are at risk.

Your prognostic pal.

johnny.

 
At 11:46 pm, Anonymous tloey said...

I wonder if you've heard of Regulation 18b Johnny?

As it happens only two "Welsh nationalists" were imprisoned under 18b the Rev T E Nicholas and his son, you'll like this JF, Islwyn ap Nicholas. I believe they were actually Communists but the Chief Constable of Cardiganshire didn't like them whatever they were.

MI5 did have lists of 156 Welsh people who were to be arrested in the event of an invasion but there were only six Welsh Nats on the lists - your old pal Saunders Lewis, Prof J E Daniel, Dr D J Davies and his Irish wife Noelle, a chap called Jones from Anglesey and a Mrs Headon ap Owen, an eccentric lady from Swansea who know one seems to know very much about.

Clearly MI5 in 1940 didn't see the Nationalista as much of a threat, although you seem to be making up for that now Johnny.

 
At 1:42 am, Anonymous johnny foreigner said...

Oh, how things have changed since the 1940's.

The latest stop and question laws certainly show that this Government seems to suspect us all.

Your permanently pariotic pal.

johnny.

 
At 2:06 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of course things have changed a bit, even the most rabid arch-druid never saw suicide bombing a tube train as the way to go.

 

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