Job vacant: Leader, Welsh Labour
Monday, May 21, 2007
Perhaps not quite yet. But soon.
A new administration in Cardiff Bay will need a new opposition. Why should Rhodri hang around for two years to size up against a government he'll never face in an election. Why should Labour AMs let him?
All the signs are that they won't. And Carwyn Jones' status as Leader in waiting has never looked more precarious. He's considered to be far too chummy with the nationalists to provide the bite Labour would require in opposition.
So who might it be then - Jane Davidson, Andrew Davies, Edwina Hart? Or does someone else have their eyes on the prize? Let's see...
Who was straight out of the blocks, doing the tricky interviews in the immediate aftermath of the election?
Who was calling for the Labour party to reflect and change?
Who was quoted in the Western Mail alongside the 'leaked' draft document that Labour proposed, rubbishing it before it got to the table?
Who hates the Tories almost as much as he hates Plaid Cymru?
.
Labels: leadership, National Assembly for Wales, politics, Rainbow Coalition, Welsh Assembly Election 2007, Welsh Labour
posted by Blamerbell @ 12:27 am,
88 Comments:
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At 12:44 am,
said...
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Huw Lewis, Merthyr? You've got to be joking. Labour should be looking for a budding statesmanship with a passion for all welsh issues. Huw Lewis does Huw Lewis, strings pulled by an ambition to better- himself.
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At 12:45 am,
said...
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Rhodri would "hang on" to try and block the so-called "unionist" wing from getting in, although he would probably be forced out.
Carwyn Jones would be the best choice for Welsh Labour as next leader, and if he did stand, I would hope that he gets in as Welsh Labour leader.
However Rhodri Morgan has not gone yet, and all this is just hearsay at the moment -
At 12:46 am,
said...
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He can sod off before he even starts!
We've had enough of his views lately -
At 12:49 am,
said...
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I'd rather see Lynne Neagle as Labour leader - shes the muscle behind the two
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At 1:24 am,
said...
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Rhodri's not done with yet. The old lion will lick his wounds and will return with a ferocity never before seen.
Two pictures in the Echo the other night summed it up beautifully. Rhodri with a thoughtful but knowing expression and Ieuan looking like he had been taken rather roughly from behind.
Classic.........I can't wait for the new session. It should be fun.
Your pal.
johnny. -
At 4:06 am,
said...
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This is a big crossroads for the Labour Party. If they chose a Welsh/British/Kinnock type candidate they can say goodbye to areas like LLanelli,Caerfyrddin,Aberconwy forever etc!!
If they chose a Welsh Labour candidate like Carwyn Jones they might be able to get back a working majority!!
For Plaid and Lib Dem's sake lets hope they take the suicide pill and chose Leighton Andrew or Huw Lewis!!
They really don't have much talent worthy of discussion!!!! -
At 8:13 am,
Lyndon said...
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He only won in Merthyr because he was so unpopular that half his constituents stood against him as independents, splitting the huge anti-Huw vote.
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At 8:51 am,
said...
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Of course he'll run. But he would represent an almighty gamble for Labour. He's such a nasty piece of work that it's highly unlikely that any of the opposition parties would ever be willing to cooperate with him in any future government. So Labour have to bet the farm on him getting a majority. How likely is that even with our semi-proportional electoral system? Can anyone (except for the man himself) really see a Huw Lewis-led Labour party regaining those seats it would need given their location and nature? More likely is that his narrow sectarianism would see Labour:
reduced to 1 constituency seat in north Wales (A&D);
being picked off in the southern cities;
and generally being pushed back to their eastern Valleys heartland (and even there they are in serious danger.)
In other words, if Huw Lewis is the answer, Labour is asking the wrong question. But given the sheer ineptitude of their campaign and post-election behaviour, you wouldn't put it past them, would you?! They haven't even begun to understand the new world of Welsh politics.
By the way, as this is my first post on here I just wanted to say thanks for the blog. Wonderful! -
At 9:09 am,
Marcusian said...
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I agree with Blamie, if the rainbow sticks then Rhodri should step aside and give a chance to rebuild. I think he will anyway.
I dont see anyone really jumping out at me, although although Carwynn is seen as a NAT i think we need a devolutionist leader.
One who wants to fight welsh politics on a welsh playing field. Welsh Labour needs to Wake up and smell the senedd coffee, devolution will only increase and we have to fight a united front. Self governance, not independence.
I am not too keen on Welsh Labour having a non-welsh speaker as Leader. So i think Carwynn is my best bet at the moment.
Huw lewis was spot on his analysis, if welsh labour does 'business as usual' i will despair. -
At 9:10 am,
Marcusian said...
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Or they could just elect me in the Rhodri by-election! haha
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At 10:21 am,
said...
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marcusian - you wish! Welsh Labour would prefer Huw Lewis after all
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At 10:37 am,
Cymro said...
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The perfect replacement for Rhodri would be a sheep. Same woolly hair and vacant look, but less likely to say something stupid. All the other possible leaders, especially Huw, have mouths bigger than their brains.
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At 10:40 am,
Marcusian said...
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"marcusian - you wish! Welsh Labour would prefer Huw Lewis after all"
haha yeah. Good point.
i think Huw sticks his head above the trench and comes forward with ideas. This is not something SOME Labour AM's do... -
At 11:12 am,
said...
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What really makes me angry is the usual glut of pernicious nonsense wheeled out by the Nationalists (aka Anonymous) about Huw Lewis, or any other Labour AM with ideas. They insist on playing the man, not the ball - which is a sure sign they're scared. As Tony Benn would say, it's about the 'ishooes'. Let's talk about them, and see who wins.
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At 11:17 am,
said...
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Marcusian said...
"i think Huw sticks his head above the trench and comes forward with ideas. This is not something SOME Labour AM's do... "
That is why it is obvious he is not a suitable leader. WE know his ideas are not representative of the majority of the Labour party. He is another Kinnock, without the brains and some of here remember how he managed to bring Labour right down to the gutter. Almost completely unelectable. -
At 11:18 am,
Marcusian said...
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"Things can only get bitter said...
What really makes me angry is the usual glut of pernicious nonsense wheeled out by the Nationalists (aka Anonymous) about Huw Lewis, or any other Labour AM with ideas. They insist on playing the man, not the ball - which is a sure sign they're scared. As Tony Benn would say, it's about the 'ishooes'. Let's talk about them, and see who wins."
Very true, when Welsh Labour begins fighting the battle of ideas on a purely welsh pitch we shall see how the nats do... -
At 11:42 am,
said...
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Huw Lewis thinks hes 1st Minsiter already. Him and his wife (also AM with another AM wage) use public money to employ Luke Holland who used to be a Labour spin Doctor. Him and his family live in Penarth - Martin Shipton outed them some time ago. Huw Lewis has no shame. People in merthyr can;t stand him either.
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At 11:47 am,
said...
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Question to marcusian: don't you think it's a bit stupid for you to be speculating on rhodri when no deal has yet been done. However unlikely it is, he COULD remain first minister and then you will look the fool.
I'm sure people in you party are not too thrilled by you talking out of your arse all the time about issues you have very little knowledge of. Don't you have a job? go back to kissing the backside of every Labour AM, MP & SPAD like you normally do. -
At 12:01 pm,
said...
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http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2007/05/message-from-arsembly.html
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At 12:08 pm,
The views of a Welsh man said...
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Rhodri is still the leader of Welsh Labour and is the only leader out of the four with clout and the intelect to run rings aroud the other leaders.
It is up to Rhodri when he decides to leave, not the media, not the opposition and especially not the blogging community.
And for the potential leaders of the party I believe there are 5 possibilities, it is not for me to say now, but I hope it is a woman.
As I have said in the past i think Mike German and Nick Bourne are in more trouble than rhodri as Mike didn't further the party in any way in the last 8 years, Nick Bourne if he doesnt get a good deal for coalition then the dogs will be a sniffin.
There is still a week to go, as a week in politics is a long time. -
At 12:21 pm,
Marcusian said...
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"Question to marcusian: don't you think it's a bit stupid for you to be speculating on rhodri when no deal has yet been done. However unlikely it is, he COULD remain first minister and then you will look the fool.
I'm sure people in you party are not too thrilled by you talking out of your arse all the time about issues you have very little knowledge of. Don't you have a job? go back to kissing the backside of every Labour AM, MP & SPAD like you normally do."
No i merely said IF A RAINBOW COALITION OCCURS I THINK RHODRI SHOULD AND WILL GO. That is all, i am not calling for him to go, far from it, but we are speculating regarding the rainbow coalition. I am many things, but stupid is not one of them.
I do have two jobs yes, indeed i work pretty much seven days a week. Yet this is my morning off...
So, you are accusing me of licking arse YET speaking my own mind against some mythical party line? make up your mind. I have my own views, if you came out from hiding behind being an anon them maybe we could have a chat? Somehow i dont think you will though...
I dont think its stupid to speculate on the rainbow coalition, i mean its hardly a bloody secret!
Being an anon is gutless... -
At 12:39 pm,
Luke Young said...
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It's getting a bit heated in here...
I for one would welcome Rhodri to stay on for another term. I know he's said he wants to retire but I'd have no problem with him remaining Welsh Labour leader. It might not be everyones view but there you go....
To Chavo.... if the above counts as 'arse kissing' to you - tough luck butt! -
At 1:01 pm,
Cwlcymro said...
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Huw Lewis and Leighton Andrews would be awful choices for Labour leader. The basis of their whole political lives is point scoring, snarling and barking like a rabid dog at everyone and everything that doesnt totally agree with them.
These two, along with Hain, were the "brains" behind Labour's "masterful" election campaign. Between them they managed Labour's worst vote since 1918.
As a Pleidiwr it would be a big benefit for us to see either iof them in charge of Labour. As a Welshman, it would be a disaster.
For the sake of Wales i'd rather have a leader of the opposition who's able to scrutinise and criticise but also co-operate when needed. To me that means Carwyn -
At 1:02 pm,
The views of a Welsh man said...
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Anon who ever you are, I think Labour will be stronger and better shape in 2011 and will kick all Plaid, Tory and Lib Dem butts in that election. we will win back the seats we lost at and we will be in majority and then the country can go forward again. As with the rainbow coalition gov that will happen and make Wales static for the next 4 years.
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At 1:08 pm,
said...
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So, we know the Nats hate Huw, point to Huw.
(In fact the Nats do more than hate Huw, they despise him, because he is so bloody effective against him. He's also a generation younger than the leaders of the other three.)
We know the Nats hate Huw's staff, point to Huw.
We know Huw recognised that a coalition with the Lib Dems was the only realistic option, point to Huw.
awww, but Lynne is lovely and she's nails. So maybe it should be her after all! -
At 1:30 pm,
said...
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Wales has to have leader with political gravitas and some degree of statesman or womanship.
They need to have as wide a political experience as we can get
Charisma is important as is the ability to be able to communicate at all levels of society. Also be able to represent Wales at all levels
They have to be able to handle the civil servants
They have to be keen negotiators, able to handle the press and visual media
They have to be bi-lingual; have to be able to see a global as well as a UK and Wales perspective on issues.
They must not be seen to be "vindictive" to any other party -what's the point in that, They will have to work with each other and negativity is not a good way for any organisation to use as its base.
Now who fits that bill?
And no female suggestions yet ....... I think of theLabour Women -Jane Davison,possibly Edwina Hart Other Parties HMJ,Jenny Randerson, Glyn Davies in a wig -
At 1:33 pm,
said...
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The fact that Carwyn is a closet nat and lazy to boot will soon put pay to any leadership aspirations he might have.The nats who post here should always remember that in any future Labour party leadership contest it will Labour party members who will decide not the Welsh speaking establishment. After 4 years of Dorothy. the Tin man and the Lion without a heart and the rest of the rainbow crew Wales will be begging for another Labour government
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At 1:36 pm,
said...
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Please let it be Neagle or Lewis.
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At 1:58 pm,
said...
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Have I seen someone really say that Huw is 'bloody effective'? Pinch me please! At what? He's a walking Plaid-recruiting machine, a hard-nosed Labour-vote-splitter who is tactically inept and can't even do much on the issues he promotes himself on.
You shouidl have seen him in Merthyr - rock solid Labour streets turned all colours of the rainbow as he canvassed. -
At 1:59 pm,
said...
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Anonymous said...
"So, we know the Nats hate Huw, point to Huw.
(In fact the Nats do more than hate Huw, they despise him, because he is so bloody effective against him. He's also a generation younger than the leaders of the other three.)"
From where I am looking, everyone hates Huw. Especcially Labour. The more experienced and knowledgable KNOW he would be a DISASTER for Labour. Read the history of Labour the last 30 years, see where they made their biggest mistakes. Why so many supporters left. We do not want to repeat that same mistake again.
Huw represents the very same type we do not want as leader. -
At 2:05 pm,
said...
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Maybe Carwyn isn't lazy but keeping his powder dry...
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At 2:06 pm,
said...
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Anoninsider said...
...Have I seen someone really say that Huw is 'bloody effective'? Pinch me please! At what? He's a walking Plaid-recruiting machine, a hard-nosed Labour-vote-splitter who is tactically inept and can't even do much on the issues he promotes himself on.
You shouidl have seen him in Merthyr - rock solid Labour streets turned all colours of the rainbow as he canvassed. ....
Hear Hear! The Labour valleys did their best to try and get rid of him.
Ask yourself Why? The valleys need a SOCIALIST representative. Merthyr should dump HL at the next election and choose a Labour person who has their real concerns at heart. And any other NULAB AM lining their pockets should go the same way. -
At 2:07 pm,
said...
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Anon: 'welsh speaking establishment'? What? Do Peter Hain, Neil Kinnock, Don Touhig, Wayne 'Sleep' David, Leighton Andrews, and all those people speak Welsh now? Bugger me. If so, I'm not taking that Wlpan course after all.
Re Anon's post: we're never far away with these Labour brownsnouts from some paranoid anti-welsh loonybins talking about an 'establishment'. Are they so stupid they think the Labour party has no welsh-speakers who believe in it? Are they so dim they think that Welsh-speakers run the country?
The anti-Welsh lobby are fuckwittedly stupid, frankly. They're the ones who have run this place for the last several decades, and we've got shit to show for it. Oh, except the worst health and employment in the UK, crumbling schools, manufacturing decline and poverty and sickness on a scale unimaginable to New Labour's London-centric cronies.
Or is that the fault of Welsh-speakers? Please correct me. -
At 2:15 pm,
said...
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If that's what a hamster diet does for you Freddie, then you should have stuck to putting them up yr arse.
bon appétit!
DR -
At 2:19 pm,
said...
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carwyn is just lazy but there we go a lazy leader for a lazy party ideal combination.
The fact is that whoever their leader is to be it makes no difference. Wales has gone down the pan under Labour.
Surely anything has to be better than another Labour led 4 years. -
At 2:21 pm,
said...
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Excuse my ignorance but what are the "huge ideological dfferences" between Labour and Plaid. Are Plaid not an essentially socialist party with socialist policies?
Oh ... I see, it's the Labour Party that isn't socialist ... -
At 2:22 pm,
Marcusian said...
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Dave Rodway,
I dont see how anyone's ability to speak welsh would improve anything...are you suggesting that? -
At 2:29 pm,
said...
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Anoninsider - I spent four weeks knocking doors with Huw on and off, and the response was bloody good. Taking into account the fact that you're either (a) a bit thick or (b) Amy Kitcher, let me explain.
Huw had five Independent candidates standing against him, one of which stood on a highly emotive (and factually inaccurate) 'Save Prince Charles Hospital' ticket. The proliferation of Independent candidates meant one main thing - an almost guaranteed drop in Huw's vote. When you factor in a spirited campaign from the Lib Dems in a few wards, complete with baseless personal allegations that would put some comments on this blog to shame, you've got your result.
Does that mean people hate Huw? No, you bloody muppett. It means that people respond to fear about cuts to services (see Clive Tovey) and personal smears (see 'nice' Amy Kitchers 'handwritten' note to residents, attacking Huw and his family. Nice.)
I urge the anonymous Nationalists posting here, and their equally absurd pals like Valley's Mam and Dave Rodway, to leave the safety of the Plaid group office / their bedroom and take a walk through many parts of Merthyr Tydfil and the Rhymney Valley. They'll no doubt find some people who dislike Huw - but they'll come across far more who both voted for him and respect him for what he is - a proud, hard working Labour AM. -
At 2:29 pm,
Marcusian said...
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"The fact is that whoever their leader is to be it makes no difference. Wales has gone down the pan under Labour."
Again this is based on a phallacy, tell me how many years pre-devolution have Labour been in charge. As in BEING IN GOVERNMENT, you can hardly expect ten years of Labour rule to change all the 'great' work done by Thatcher for Wales. Too many people think because we have had Labour MP's that somehow they are to blame for any of Wales' ills. Surely it is the mostly tory governments that have caused generational problems in Wales? I am not saying Labour must shy away from their responsibility, but it is not FACT to say Labour have run wales forever...When most of the time they have been in opposition in Westminster. Are all Plaid's westminster MP's at fault for those constituencies problems? No they are not.
I think people are kidding themselves to see that a Plaid-led rainbow will put right all this Labour 'damage'? So far we are being offered a new welsh language act (that means nothing to 75% of Wales at least), some 'business' proposals and PR in Local government that is only being brought in for political gain. Well whoopee shit! -
At 2:30 pm,
said...
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Three minutes for that classic retort, dave. Usually takes you a few hours while you finish with the goat porn and get back to this blog.
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At 2:32 pm,
said...
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Loads of comments backing Carwyn for leader on a blog apparently staffed by Plaid support staff. Who'd have thunk it?!?
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At 2:32 pm,
said...
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Hang on, Dean Phillips, you attack a Lib Dem prospective AM, but somehow it's the nationalists who are at fault?
The anonymous chap who wanted shot of HL wanted a socialist Labour AM (yes, to me that implies he/she is a Labour supporter not a Plaid supporter) - why do you have to attack Plaid? Is it fear for your heartlands? -
At 3:08 pm,
said...
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Can someone please tell me what all this "Carwyn is great" shtick is about? As far as I can see it seems to be that he speaks Welsh and, errr, that's it.
He made a pig's ear of the one major crisis he faced - Foot and mouth - effectively single-handedly stopped a vaccination programme across England and wales and so turning the whole thing into an economic disaster.
As for being bilingual being a prerequisite to being FM, it's great to see that the Nats rule out 80% of the population from leading the country. Bet you none of them have the stones to say that in public. -
At 3:11 pm,
Geraint said...
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Wow, the cowardly anons are really being vile and aggressive in this comment post, so they are either trolls, or extremist nationalists.
Rhodri is still the leader at the moment and their is no leadership contest, no leadership contenders and no-one has said out any stalls, we cant say who is standing and what direction they would take Welsh Labour. -
At 3:11 pm,
said...
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"As in BEING IN GOVERNMENT, you can hardly expect ten years of Labour rule to change all the 'great' work done by Thatcher for Wales"
Ten years of Labour is not a bad stretch to make a start on 11 years of Thatcher/18 years of conservatism. How many years do you want. 20? 25? How many years are we expected to wait patiently?
We can hardly expect a Labour govt to change the work of Thatcherism? Certainly not given that Blair's Labour committed itself to undoing very little.
It's a fair point to say that Labour were very often opposition in Westminster despite being by far the largest party in Wales. Such a shame it took them decades to suss that devolution might be AN answer (not THE answer) to that.
Labour in Wales is still wedded to the preference for being a little fish in a big pond than the biggest fish in a smaller pond - hence the reason why marcusian's call on another thread for Labour's talents in Wales to be shepherded into the Assembly will fall on deaf ears. -
At 3:14 pm,
said...
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Freddie, you're obviously not very bright, but 3 minutes was not really that long to come up with a riposte to your lame, lame, rant. It's the obvious strain and large amount of time you need to come up with them that is cause for concern.
Marcusian - I'm not sure what your comment gets at? I didn;t raise the Welsh issue, except in relation to some dork who mentioedn the 'Welsh-speaking establishment'. I was pointing out that teh establishment looks pretty non-welsh speaking to me. I don;t give a shit what language they speak, which is clearly more than can be said for the boss-eyed welsh-haters who cruise this blog and talk in paranoid cliches.
Dean - whatever you say. Dunno who writes your scripts but the boss will be pleased.
Huw for Leader it is then! With Freddie writing his passionate speeches.
DR -
At 3:18 pm,
said...
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Never met Huw Lewis - not on my list of things to do, Dave. You are, however, indisputably atill a tosser.
How are the goats? -
At 3:25 pm,
Marcusian said...
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"Labour in Wales is still wedded to the preference for being a little fish in a big pond than the biggest fish in a smaller pond - hence the reason why marcusian's call on another thread for Labour's talents in Wales to be shepherded into the Assembly will fall on deaf ears."
Well at least you accept it not a bad call reagarding welsh labour...
Also, tell me what repeal of thatcherism are ANY of the parties offering? Plaid may not want any MORE privatisation, but they are not going to remove the current private investment. My own views are that we need to peel back privatisation in public services, however we need to be a realistic about this. I await Plaid's repealing of all the neo-liberal reforms Thatcher brought in...THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN IN THE RAINBOW coalition!
"Ten years of Labour is not a bad stretch to make a start on 11 years of Thatcher/18 years of conservatism. How many years do you want. 20? 25? How many years are we expected to wait patiently?"
But then go beyond Thatcherism, how many years have Labour actually been in power with any sort of majority to work with (i add this because in the 70's we had bugger all to work with). I would argue that Blair's government has changed quite alot, we are talking about a DEVOLVED wales for a start. Something that he DELIVERED, not thought up, might not have 100% supported but delivered. If the tories won in 1997 we would not have devolution. FACT. Plaid could never deliver devolution for Wales as it couldnt even break out of its heartlands.
Also tell me what domestic policies would Plaid or Cameron repeal? Minimum wage? tax credits? surestart? high investment in the NHS and Education? to me that says alot about how the political climate often dictates many parties direction. -
At 3:34 pm,
said...
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Where does this idea that carwyn is lazy come from? Spin from others no doubt. He has of course published a pamphlet on his views, which is more than others. The idea that he is a Nat comes from the fact that he speaks Welsh and from the bigots who think that this equates with being one.
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At 3:45 pm,
said...
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Why aren't Labour voters more angry about how we have managed to make such a mess of negotiations? Our best asset for the ordinary voter is Rhodri, yet our so called colleagues in the Assembly have stitched him up.
To make matters worse, it could lead to the Tories ruling over us for the first time since 97. I admit the Liberals have not helped but we know not to trust them, but I didn't expect the knives in Rhodri to come from our side????? -
At 3:58 pm,
Marcusian said...
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"Why aren't Labour voters more angry about how we have managed to make such a mess of negotiations? Our best asset for the ordinary voter is Rhodri, yet our so called colleagues in the Assembly have stitched him up.
To make matters worse, it could lead to the Tories ruling over us for the first time since 97. I admit the Liberals have not helped but we know not to trust them, but I didn't expect the knives in Rhodri to come from our side?????"
Hang on, i am not aware of how the negotiations have gone, i dont know what are deal breakers, we can only speculate as supporters. I am sure that the mike german and IWJ basically must have said to Rhodri 'What will you give us?' and not vice versa. I think Rhodri is a huge asset to Welsh Labour, i was merely saying that IF there is a rainbow coalition and as stated by RHODRI that he is retiring in two years time then this to me indicates that any new Leader should be given time to bed in and the debate to be had. Had Rhodri not said he was going to retire in two years time i would be 100% calling for Rhodri to continue no matter what, but that isnt the reality is it?
All this 'unionist' chatter, all this welsh labour 'split' stories come from anons which says it all really doesnt it? Shit stirring from other parties. -
At 3:59 pm,
said...
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"Anonymous said...
Why aren't Labour voters more angry about how we have managed to make such a mess of negotiations? Our best asset for the ordinary voter is Rhodri, yet our so called colleagues in the Assembly have stitched him up.
To make matters worse, it could lead to the Tories ruling over us for the first time since 97. I admit the Liberals have not helped but we know not to trust them, but I didn't expect the knives in Rhodri to come from our side?????"
So Blamerbell runs a story about an AM, putting two and two together, coming up with eight. Lots of people slag other people off, and all of a sudfden, Labour AMs have 'knives out for Rhodri'. How does that work, then? -
At 4:00 pm,
Ted Jones said...
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Once the Lib Dems made their decision on Thursday the dynamic was clear.
If Labour come up with the goods, (main points being Referendum on Parliament, Barnett Reform, Language Act and scrap hospital reconfiguration) Plaid will support Rhodri Morgan as First Minister. If there is no delivery on these points from Labour, rainbow is inevitable (why would you keep someone else in power with nothing in return when you could deliver most of your programme via an alternative route?)
As Leanne Wood said in the Western Mail on Saturday, Plaid's politics is more than just the pursuit of power. If that was our goal we would already have a rainbow government in place. This matter will be decided by what Labour offer as their final negotiating statement. At the moment I understand they are offering nothing of any note.
The question then arises why aren't Labour offering a deal acceptable to Plaid, which is what at the heart of Blamerbells post. Is Rhodri powerless cause of the strength of the unionist wing of their party who would rather die in a ditch than work with Plaid? or does he have the ability to drive his group towards an agreement that would satisfy Plaid? -
At 4:04 pm,
said...
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Marcusian - am as bemused by you with all this 'Unionist' stuff. Is it anony-nat talk for non-Welsh speaker?
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At 4:08 pm,
Marcusian said...
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"The question then arises why aren't Labour offering a deal acceptable to Plaid, which is what at the heart of Blamerbells post. Is Rhodri powerless cause of the strength of the unionist wing of their party who would rather die in a ditch than work with Plaid? or does he have the ability to drive his group towards an agreement that would satisfy Plaid? "
I dont think it is as simple as that...ultimately there is no love lost between labour and Plaid. Just because there is objections to any deal with Plaid doesnt mean there is some big 'unionist' conspiracy. My worry is that if we offer too much too soon to Plaid or the Lib dems just to stop the rainbow we could damage our credibility to members and people that voted for us. Another question should be why arent Plaid willing to accept SOME of the consensual areas of their approach? I mean if there are a socialist party surely they would be far more willing to work with Labour than the tories?
Again none of us know what the definite deal breakers are...this is unacceptable from all parties. Lets hear from all parties what they want and what they dont want out in public...
I find it funny that this whole 'unionist' funny, i think there is a far bigger nationalist/socialist split in Plaid... -
At 4:10 pm,
said...
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Not the 'I' word?!?!
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At 4:11 pm,
Marcusian said...
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"Marcusian - am as bemused by you with all this 'Unionist' stuff. Is it anony-nat talk for non-Welsh speaker? "
Dwi'n cyntuno, dwin ddim yn deall chwaith! -
At 4:12 pm,
said...
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"Well at least you accept it not a bad call reagarding welsh labour..."
Course not. That having been said there aren't many Wales Labour MPs I'd be gagging to see in the Assembly. Kevin Brennan maybe? Hywel Francis?
Perhaps you're thinking of the array of Labour talent in valley
councils.
on the repeal of thatcherism it may well be that other parties are not aiming to do so but then they're not the ones constanlty wringing their hands about "18 years of Tory under-investment", "18 years of Tory boom and bust", "18 years of....."
British Labour constantly give the impression that bemoaning "18 years..etc" means that they are going to do something to reverse it but if you're not then say so - in some instances you may be right not to reverse what's in place and people CAN cope with the truth. -
At 4:19 pm,
said...
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About a decade after the thread starts, Ted Jones and David Walters wade in with their ususla Labour bashing, Plaid praising nonsense.
Fair play - all three opposition Parties have played a blinder and kicked the larghest party out of the game. An undeniable truth which all Plaid suppoters on here are crowing about. IWJ and his merry men, however, are also doling out cabinet posts to Tories. Another fact which people seem less keen to discuss. Possibly because its the act of a tracherous pillock who jas oput the trappings of power over the people of Wales.
Why doesn't IWJ just get over himself, admit that its all about Alex Sammond having a bigger dick than him, then we all go home and wait for Jonatahn Morgan to fuck the NHS? -
At 4:27 pm,
said...
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Oh, come on!
Unionist means those who believe in the United Kingdom. Usually one generation removed from those who believe that "we" should never have left India go. Those valley "socialists" holding out for their OBEs and knighthoods, shire Tories and Powys liberals.
It doesn't mean those who don't speak Welsh.
Unionist in Northern Ireland doesn't mean "non-Irish speaking"
Unionist in Scotland doesn't mean "non-gallic speaking"
If you're going to try to muddy the waters I'm sure you can do better than that! -
At 4:29 pm,
said...
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Freddie, you must teach me how to engage in rational discussion sometime - I'm obviously lacking your abilities for constructive critique
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At 4:45 pm,
said...
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The idea that Carwyn is lazy comes from both the people in his constituency and all the farmers in Wales who feel let down.
What amazing thing has he done in 8 years? Umm let me think.........
answers on a postcard? -
At 4:45 pm,
said...
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Freddie,
So Labour's actions have not contributed to the current situation then? The problem you have here is that when all the talk is over, the real truth will come out.
I look forward to you talking your way out of that one. -
At 4:50 pm,
said...
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The election should have been held on March 14th, so that all Rhodri's colleagues could have poetically stabbed him in the back on the Ides.
Carwyn may be lazy, but he's the best you have. Whoever you get, I hope you treat him better than you have Rhodri in the last couple of weeks. -
At 5:28 pm,
said...
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Why are Plaid still negotiating with the Labour party? Rhodri can't give anything on the Barnett formula because it is a Treasury issue. An independent commisssion on the matter isn't worth the paper it is written on. As for an early referendum on more powers for the assembly that could be really interesting. What happens if all of those who don't bother to vote decide to take part. No one should assume that a 'yes' vote is a foregone conclusion. Increased powers equals more AMs and more money for the politicians. Hardly a popular message at a time of restraint in the public sector.It is also worrying that some of the plaid postings suggest that being able to speak Welsh is a prerequisate for leading Wales. For most of us on the left of politics the rainbow coalition should offer some real fun. Wait until they see the books and then have to make the hard decisions. The next few years could really place a strain on the rural Tories in Plaid and the trots and other Heinz 57 variety of socialism who seem to occupy thier valley wing.It's also great that so many seem to underestimate the ability of the Labour party to bounce back. Always remember the old valley saying of after the soap comes the razor.
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At 5:34 pm,
Geraint said...
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Maybe because Plaid would prefer to work with a centre-left socialist party, rather then two centre-right liberal and conservative parties?
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At 6:16 pm,
said...
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Rhodri has messed up the negotiations, the only reason I can see for it is his failure to accept that he had to work with other parties.
Until the Libs rebuffed him publically, Labour had done nothing to try and make a deal with Plaid. Plaid had produced a detailed plan of how the parties could work together. Rhodri Morgan didn't read it.
Labour gave Plaid a one sheet piece of paper which basically said "we'll discuss all our moves with you before the other parties, but you won't have any power to change our position. In exchange you cannot spring any suprises on us for 4 years".
Labour failed to realise that co-operation meant giving in and comprimising on some matters. While they may have realised that now (all this sudden talk of "partners" and "willing to discuss PR") but they certaintly didn't until end of last week.
Negotiations between plaid and Labour were conducted by Rhodri, Hutt, Gwyther. They're not the ones who should be involved, if Plaid and Labour were to have worked together they be sure people like Gareth Jones and Elin Jones could work with Huw Lewis and Leighton. Lewis and Leighton never came near the Plaid discussions.
Labour assumed it could get an easy deal with the Libs and only "talked" to Plaid as a bargaining chip against the Libs. At the same time, the Libs and the Tories were ready to engage in proper discussions about a realistic way forward.
Labour and Plaid could have happened if Labour wanted it to happen. Rhodri didn't give a Plaid coalition anything more than a patronising half-second thought, and Huw Lewis and Leighton were keeping out of it, ready to torpedo given half the chance.
That's why we're going to end up with a Rainbow coalition. By the time Rhodri and Labour relalised that negotiating meant giving as well as taking it was much too late. -
At 7:42 pm,
said...
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Gwyther? ffs
Fact is though, Labour don't want a colaition with the Nats and want a "confidence and supply" agreement even less. Rhodri knows if he tried to get that one through a Welsh Labour conference he'd be slaughtered.
The Welsh Lib Dems are about to learn a hard, hard lesson. Well, let them go ahead - it won't be long before their Swansea and Cardiff councillors will be desperate to get out of their three party deal. -
At 8:00 pm,
said...
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difafhspdean.phillips
For your information I am an ex member of the labour party of 23 years standing I left when new labour ruined it So don’t talk about what you don’t know
Merthyr has the highest economic inactivity rates highest sickness rates, dearth of job prospects, we have a huge open cast coming to blight the borough etc etc That concerns me not the politicking
and party antagonisms -
At 8:13 pm,
said...
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isn;t this freddie starr bloke a twat?
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At 8:15 pm,
said...
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and Dean - where were you canvassing with Huey? Penarth I assume, his home patch? Or Merthyr, that faraway place he puts on his headed notepaper?
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At 8:25 pm,
ganesh family said...
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and may the lord (or whatever diety you prefer0 have mercy onthe people of Wales for they know not what they do.
The people chose to mess up the vote and know they must live with it even if it means a rainbowe coalition nad Huey as labour leader.
(I beg for mercy now) -
At 8:33 pm,
said...
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dean.phillips_2003@msn.com said...
""Anoninsider - I spent four weeks knocking doors with Huw on and off, and the response was bloody good. Taking into account the fact that you're either (a) a bit thick or (b) Amy Kitcher, let me explain. ""
What you write here is a lie. Merthyr people answering doors during the election were very disillusioned with New Labour, and complained about Huw Lewis looking after his own interests rather than Merthyr. He even failed to attend some important meetings during the hustings, where he would surely have been shown up as inadequate against some of the other candidates.
I am not Plaid, Lib/Dem or Tory, I was Labour.
""Huw had five Independent candidates standing against him, one of which stood on a highly emotive (and factually inaccurate) 'Save Prince Charles Hospital' ticket. The proliferation of Independent candidates meant one main thing - an almost guaranteed drop in Huw's vote. When you factor in a spirited campaign from the Lib Dems in a few wards, complete with baseless personal allegations that would put some comments on this blog to shame, you've got your result.""
Huw is a big boy. He should be able to fight his own battles. His party machine made him look like a mummy's boy who must not be upset by "other parties" walking on his territory. As you have just done. Merthyr deserves the best but it is not getting it. Who was telling people "vote Plaid get Tory? Is that a smear?
""Does that mean people hate Huw? No, you bloody muppett. It means that people respond to fear about cuts to services (see Clive Tovey) and personal smears (see 'nice' Amy Kitchers 'handwritten' note to residents, attacking Huw and his family. Nice.)""
Let New Labour in government speak for itself. People are not as stupid as you and Huw think they are. Telling it as it is is not spreading smears. It may not suit Huw, but that's the government he represents. A no go for the Valleys and the Welsh. The whole New Labour campaign in Merthyr was based on lies.
"I urge the anonymous Nationalists posting here,"
Listen mush, I am not a Nationalist. I am a SOCIALIST! What you are pretending to be! -
At 8:38 pm,
said...
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I agree with some Anon or other that the Labour party bounces back. It's what it's good at, and Plaid should beware coalitions with Tories. That said, if anyone still thinks NuLab isn;t an esentially Thatcherite party, one that accepts the givens of Thatcher but is ready to tinker at the edges to give itself the air of social justice, hasn;t been living in the UK the rest of us have.
High risk strategies for all concerned, except the Tories, who come out of this winners either way: either left out of the coalition, where they look like an opposition all are afraid of, or in a coalition being given cred. No other party is in this situation. Win-win for the Tories. -
At 8:55 pm,
ganesh family said...
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if you spent four weeks knocking on doors with Huey, howome you didn't knock on mine.
Huw and his cronies were in my street, they pushed leaflets through the door, but no knock, but then where i live you might have got a poke in the eye rather than a warm welcome -
At 9:07 pm,
said...
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Actually, this is more than hatred for Huw. It is fear. Bring it on - and let the Nats tremble. They've had it easy under Rhodri, now they are about the reap whirlwind!
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At 9:14 pm,
ganesh family said...
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look we are not afraid of huw ( i have my garlic and crucifix ready).
if he became Lab leader, it would be the end of them, the others will fall about laughing as the Lab infighting will hand them the Senedd on a plate -
At 9:58 pm,
said...
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Reap the whirlwind? It's not hate or fear Anon, it's a desperate wish on the part of Labour 's opponents that Huw becomes leader. Can't you see why?
Whilwind indeed - more like a long, slow , sulphurous fart. And the only poeple reaping that one would be NuLab. -
At 10:41 pm,
said...
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During the election campaign in abertwsswg, my cousin who votes Labour told me that Huw Lewis and Rhodri Morgan both gave up canvesssing because reception they got, no sure about the person who said 'they love Huw'
maybe self denial on Labour's part i'd say -
At 11:07 pm,
said...
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Labour is the past, time to move on
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At 11:45 pm,
said...
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80+ comments! you're having a laugh!
let's just put them in the millenium staduim with weapons and the one with the most limbs at the end of the day becomes first minister. the money from the tickets can go to charity, and if Leighton Andrews is a casualty then everyone's a winner baby -
At 1:06 am,
said...
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Anonymous said...
//During the election campaign in abertwsswg, my cousin who votes Labour told me that Huw Lewis and Rhodri Morgan both gave up canvesssing because reception they got, no sure about the person who said 'they love Huw' //
Yes, we heard that story in west wales the following day. Huey and Rhods were trying to make it look like a big welcome, but people did not want to know them. Rhods turned to Huey and asked what had happened there? -
At 10:17 am,
said...
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Bloody hell, nat lie machine out in force.
By the way, my cousin in Llyn, who votes Plaid told me that ***** had been confronted on the street by an angry gang of parents who said "you better ****** get out of here you Nationalist ******"
True. -
At 11:55 am,
Cwlcymro said...
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Isn't it great how, at the slightest mention of Huw Lewis and Leighton Andrews, all the Anons come out to bicker! There could be tens of them, there could be just two - who knows!
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At 1:00 pm,
said...
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ah but were the people in Llyn who abused a Plaid canvasser welsh-hating tossers or people with legitmate grievances against Plaid? Were they Engish or Welsh? and if they were incomers, did they have the courtesy to show their respect for the local language and culture by abusing him/her in Welsh?
These questions all need answering before we can draw any conclusions, pro or contra, from Anon's posting. -
At 3:44 pm,
said...
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blam have you read luke youngs latest post looks as if hes none too happy about huw either
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At 4:19 pm,
Cwlcymro said...
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dave rodway - the most obvious questions about complainers in Llyn is - who on earth were they complaining too. Llyn now part of Dwyfor Meirionydd I doubt anyone of any party bothered to do that much campaigning. With such an assured majority Dafydd El must have had the most stress-free holiday of his life!
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At 9:02 pm,
said...
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Guto said...
///Isn't it great how, at the slightest mention of Huw Lewis and Leighton Andrews, all the Anons come out to bicker! There could be tens of them, there could be just two - who knows! ///
From where I am looking I put my bet on several tens. Different political colours and so on.
Have not noticed a particular tendency for them to bicker over the valleys crowd, in fact most of those have names. Perhaps you are a bit sensitive?
Read Huw Lewis' blog. He does not have anons.
