Tories Cook up a storm
Monday, June 11, 2007
You all scoffed last week when I hinted the Conservatives might try and bring down the government over lack of movement on a new Welsh language act.
But with travel agent Thomas Cook appearing stubbornly monoglot in its unwillingness to embrace the Welsh language, the Tories made the first move.
They are calling for a review of the Welsh language act. You'll remember that Labour's legislative proposals stopped short of it, though it's a big deal in the proposed rainbow coalition programme for government.
Plaid have since chipped in with their own calls for increased Welsh language legislation. Well, they do everything together these days, don't they?
Labour's masterplan is to exclude the Conservatives from the consensus they have been seeking. They are trying to raise issues which isolate the Tories. But the men in blue are attempting quite the reverse and on today's form, seem to be having some success.
UPDATE:
Q: What's the worst thing you can do when you're embroiled in a storm about the Welsh language?A: Put up a bi-lingual sign which butchers it.
Even Jade Goody would do a better job of public relations than that.
Labels: National Assembly for Wales, Plaid Cymru, politics, Tories, Welsh Labour, Welsh language
posted by Blamerbell @ 3:22 pm,
72 Comments:
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At 3:52 pm,
said...
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Tories will do anything to get into power, stoping short at nothing.
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At 4:06 pm,
said...
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All I can say is as much as I support the Welsh language, Any attempt to introduce a Quebec style language act will end in tears for Plaid and any party that supports them.
English speakers will feel that they are 2nd class citizens in their own country, and that is not right! -
At 4:40 pm,
Clear Red Water said...
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Anon,
very good point, a quebec style law will entrench the lingustic divide not help it.
This another example of political bubble politics, people really dont care about nationalist welsh language issues. People as in not the 100 people who read blogs in Wales, but those pesky voters, 86% of them dont actually speak the language.
I await the rainbow voting Labour down on the a new welsh Language act! -
At 4:41 pm,
said...
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The aim of any legislation would be EQUALITY, with no second class citizens which, as the Thomas Cook fiasclo clearly demonstrates, is what Welsh-speakers clearly are.
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At 4:52 pm,
gwe said...
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Clear Red Water - your dismissive attitude does you great disservice. What's the point of calling for constructive dialgoue on your own blog, while undermining it elsewhere?
May I also remind you that the issue here is not bubble politics, but something that effects REAL people, like the staff at Thomas Cook's Bangor office. How do you think they feel?
If we were talking about the rights of some indigenous Central American tribe, all these so-called progressive leftists would be signing petitions and drinking Fair Trade coffee in sympathy.
Well, this isn't Central America, although it often feels like a banana republic. This is Wales. Your home and mine. And it's time we made sure that never again should the management of any company based in Wales be allowed to subject its workforce to this kind of insulting, repressive, anachronistic nonsense.
Show some solidarity! -
At 5:13 pm,
Bonheddwr said...
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Dafydd Iwan was on Radio Cymru at 8am this morning calling for a New Welsh Language Act. Their press release is here:
http://www.plaidcymru.org/content.php?nID=14;ID=251;lID=1
Cymdeithas yr Iaith press release is here:
http://cymdeithas.org/2007/06/11/thomas_cook_must_back_down.html
What a ridicilous comment by anonymous 4:06 PM. You must be having a laugh. How can ensuring that everyone in Wales (both Welsh and English speakers) have the right to use, learn and work through the medium of Welsh make monoglot English speakers 2nd class? It would be giving them extra rights!
And in any case, has giving rights to disabled people made able people 2nd class citizens. Grow Up!
As a Socialist, I cannot understand how some on the 'left' feel it is OK to attack a minority in this country, but defend minorities throughout the rest of the world. My socialism is based on our communities, it seems that Clear Red Water and his ilk are intergalactic Socialists only! -
At 5:21 pm,
said...
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When it comes to preparing a new language act it's important to maintain that the rights of people won't be effected and that it won't suggest that Welsh speakers should be ignorant towards English only speakers. A news language act should compel private sector companies, especially those in the retail and services sectors to provide an English and Welsh language option for all services/signs/staff/websites etc but not infringe on the rights of people.
If the government want more Welsh first language speakers they should encourage more parents to send their children to Welsh medium schools.
Ryan. -
At 5:40 pm,
said...
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'Welsh' as a language is very cleverly named. It is in no way 'The language of Wales', but its name links it with Wales inextricably, rather than Gwynedd and Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire where it is genuinely strong.
An act mandating the use of Welsh in business is a disgusting incursion by the state into individual affairs. I don't expect to be able to conduct myself in English EVERYWHERE I go, for Welsh speakers to demand the right to use Welsh everywhere is equally ridiculous and it becomes twice as insane when you think shops and businesses in non-Welsh speaking areas like Monmouth and Hay and Prestatyn will be mandated to spend money Welshifying themselves, which to this point hasn't been demanded of them. Welsh speakers haven't used the power they wield with their feet and their wallets to encourage businesses to conduct themselves in Welsh. Wales is an English speaking country first and foremost. An all-Wales Welsh Language Act will be a costly and worthless burden. I hope the Tories don't go forward with this. -
At 6:03 pm,
said...
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Having worked in the private sector my whole career, I really believe forcing firms to provide Welsh langauge services will be a step too far.
I will be honest and admit I am an English only Welsh man who has returned to Wales after a stint in London. Considering the huge issues facing Wales, esp the state of the economy, I can not understand why the language issue is the only thing that seems to fire up our political classes. English is the international laguage of business, the rest of the world in getting to grips with mandarin, and here we are in Wales talking about topling a minority government over a language issue which only affects 20 per cent tops of the Welsh population. I know that is a hard fact to swallow for many, but it is true.
I was close to negotations to bring Amazon to Swansea - do you think they would be impressed with this language debate? They don't give a shit. A prominent South East Wales business man who employs hundreds of staff recently told me he is considering leaving Wales due to a combination of the language and growing nationalism. He feels the Assembly spends to much time debating these issues in and out of the chamber, when large swathes of the Valleys and West Wales are a shame on the country. Do you think the poor and unemployed in Merthyer are debating the pros and cons of paying their water bill in Welsh? Please, this country needs some level heads. The language is in danger of becoming an issue that colours all debates in Wales and make us a laughing stock to the rest of the world.
Before the mega nationalists out there start abusing me, I must state a beleive the language should be supported and encouraged and be allowed to thrive. It seems to me this is already happening. However, this country must move foward together and look at the bigger picture. We do not want to create a backlash among english speakers. The consequences would be awful. There is already a feeling among many who don't speak Welsh that it is being increasingly forced upon them and they are simply not interested. -
At 6:04 pm,
said...
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"'Welsh' as a language is very cleverly named. It is in no way 'The language of Wales', but its name links it with Wales inextricably, rather than Gwynedd and Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire where it is genuinely strong."
It was the majority language of virtually the whole of Wales (south pembroke and Monmouth being teh only possible exceptions) for two thousand years from around the start of the first millenium AD until just two or three generations ago. Thats why it's called Welsh - a historical fact, not clever PR.
"Welsh speakers haven't used the power they wield with their feet and their wallets to encourage businesses to conduct themselves in Welsh."
How do you propose they do thsi when the 'choice' is between one bank/supermarket/travel agent with no Welsh services and another bank/supermarket/travel agent with equally non-existent provision. In a situation like that there is no power for your individual Wlesh-speaker, and thats why trhe enshrining of rights are important.
"for Welsh speakers to demand the right to use Welsh everywhere is equally ridiculous and it becomes twice as insane when you think shops and businesses in non-Welsh speaking areas like Monmouth and Hay and Prestatyn will be mandated to spend money Welshifying themselves, which to this point hasn't been demanded of them.
Ah, teh old chip-shop in Newport argument again. Have you actually read the Welsh language Society's proposed New Language Act? If you had you'd see that it advocates no such blanket coverage and the Newport chippy will have very few, if any, obligations. Caernarfon Tescos on the other hand would, and why on earth shouldn't they? -
At 6:08 pm,
said...
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Blamerbell said:
"Labour's masterplan is to exclude the Conservatives from the consensus they have been seeking. They are trying to raise issues which isolate the Tories."
"That is the sort of politics that we in Wales want to see the back of. Labour will find they will be cutting their noses to spite their faces if they put party political issues before what voters want. They keep forgeting they are New Labour now and can no longer afford to attack the Tories. Their recent history of government in wales was disastrous.
So they are now willing to put a spanner in the works to jeapordise the new Welsh Language Act because they don't like a particular party? -
At 6:13 pm,
Clear Red Water said...
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Gwe,
I think that the tories position is based more on the potential for a rainbow than the real need for it by their voters or the public at large. The thomas cook bangor shop is not a good example, and is being dealt with by other government agencies.
Personalising the issue does not help the situation or your arguments. My problem is not with the employees themselves, but the notion that a blanket wales wide law is helpful or desirable to many in Wales.
As i have stated clearly i am against a Welsh Language act becuase it will entrench the welsh language areas and not increase its use in English speaking Wales. On my blog i said it is about ends and means, i havent deviated from that. I support the promotion of the welsh language, but i dont believe that a single law will do that.
Without compulsion for businesses it is toothless, with compulsion it is tasteless. Borne's welsh language act will differ from Plaid's idea of an act. Political expediency coupled with language pressure groups should not be driving the debate.
I that may look dismissive because i think it is still an elite driven debate that doesnt resonate with many voters outside of Welsh speaking Wales. -
At 6:19 pm,
Geraint said...
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A New Welsh Language act that will require busineses to conduct themselves in all areas in both Welsh and English would damage the Welsh economy, since it would push up the costs.
More over the Welsh Language Society uses violence and commit criminal to try and get it's own way, is it no wonder why there is such hostility to a new Welsh Languange Act? -
At 6:20 pm,
Clear Red Water said...
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"I was close to negotations to bring Amazon to Swansea - do you think they would be impressed with this language debate? They don't give a shit."
BINGO. Surely the tories those haters of 'red tape' must recognise this. BT in newport is a call centre for the whole of the UK not just wales also.
" If you had you'd see that it advocates no such blanket coverage and the Newport chippy will have very few, if any, obligations. Caernarfon Tescos on the other hand would, and why on earth shouldn't they?"
All the more reason not to have a law really then surely?
So essentially you want a law to say to the newport chippy- "you havent got any obligations, but he is a load of documents that have been paid for by taxes to tell you."
You have just lost the argument, you essentially want Caernarfon asda to offer welsh and the newport chippy to carry on as normal. A law that changes nothing then and basically says we want rights for welsh speakers in welsh speaking areas. You either want the act to have teeth or you dont. -
At 6:37 pm,
Cymro said...
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Clear Red Water, if you actually read previous comments or the newspapers, you wouldn't write such rubbish. In Welsh areas, businesses like Thomas cook sometimes try to ban Welsh in the workplace or similar idiocy. That is the CHANGE we want to achieve.
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At 6:40 pm,
View from the Glen said...
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This comment has been removed by the author.
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At 6:54 pm,
Bonheddwr said...
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"More over the Welsh Language Society uses violence and commit criminal to try and get it's own way, is it no wonder why there is such hostility to a new Welsh Languange Act?"
What a pratt! Not a single member of the Welsh Language Society HAS EVER been arrested, or put behind bars for using violence. Your statement is simply a lie.
The Welsh Language Society believes in non-violent direct action based on the Ghandi model.
The hostility towards the Welsh language and a New Welsh Language Act has been created by Labour. They fear that more Welsh speakers = less votes for Labour.
It is very surprising to see 'clear red water' - a so called Socialist (b******s!) - putting the rights of big business before the people of Wales. This just goes to show how far to the right New Labour have lurched! Even the Tories seem to care more about Welsh people and communities than Labour these days.
The Labour Party is the most anti-Welsh Party in the Assembly, and if they continue, they will do even worse at the next Assembly elections! -
At 7:27 pm,
said...
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Geraint said...
"More over the Welsh Language Society uses violence and commit criminal to try and get it's own way, is it no wonder why there is such hostility to a new Welsh Languange Act? "
What rubbish. Unbelievable what some posters will say to justify their bigotted views.
Geraint, can you explain why you said this? -
At 7:29 pm,
gwe said...
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Clear Red Water: "The thomas cook bangor shop is not a good example, and is being dealt with by other government agencies."
Would you care to elaborate? And I beg to differ about 'personalising' the argument. You cannot ignore that this has caused REAL distress to REAL people.
Anon : "I was close to negotations to bring Amazon to Swansea - do you think they would be impressed with this language debate?"
Amazon have only recently accepted cheques written in Welsh, which is like going back to the eighties... I have no sympathy whatsoever for multinationals or mega-comanies who plead poverty when it comes to issues like this. They make enough profit as it is.
LET us be quite clear about this - the issue at stake - i.r. Thomas Cook - isn't about nit-picking about a possible language act, which every sensible person agrees that it must be handled with care. No, this is about something far more basic. It's about people's inalienable right to speak together in their own language in his own country - unconditionally and without exception - a privilege already granted every day in every corner of Wales to every single English speaker.
Stopping people speaking Welsh is wrong. Period. No ifs. No buts. -
At 7:32 pm,
said...
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/The Labour Party is the most anti-Welsh Party in the Assembly, and if they continue, they will do even worse at the next Assembly elections! /
It looks like they are heading that way. They lie, decieve and bully the elecorate. Then when found out they tie themselves up with more lies. -
At 8:05 pm,
said...
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Anonymous 6.03 said:
"I can not understand why the language issue is the only thing that seems to fire up our political classes. English is the international laguage of business, the rest of the world in getting to grips with mandarin, and here we are in Wales talking about topling a minority government over a language issue which only affects 20 per cent tops of the Welsh population"
Wow! Guileless self-referencing. -
At 8:31 pm,
said...
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Hedd said
"What a ridicilous comment by anonymous 4:06 PM. You must be having a laugh. How can ensuring that everyone in Wales (both Welsh and English speakers) have the right to use, learn and work through the medium of Welsh make monoglot English speakers 2nd class? It would be giving them extra rights!"
You know I was not saying that!! If a Welsh speaker demands service in Welsh in a store that only has English speakers. Does that mean they can claim discrimination against the store?
I agree with you on Thomas Cook. They have every right to use Welsh.I dont agree with a act that will push Welsh into a ghetto like the Irish "Gaeltagh" that won't help Welsh. -
At 8:51 pm,
said...
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English has not become the majority language of Great Britain through the noise of extremist protest and by using the law's hammer, it happened because that is the language everybody speaks and therefore it was a necessity. Welsh is nowhere near being a necessity and supermarkets and the like know this. Caernarfon and such places may be 70% Welsh speaking but they're also 100% English speaking. Welsh, even in these areas is a secondary language.
We do not pass laws to ensure the Carmarthen Tesco stocks Shreddies or has enough trollies, it becomes demanded of them. Welsh speakers need to use this natural democracy to develop their desired Welsh speaking areas, not by using their landed and priveliged position in Welsh politics and government, which is profoundly undemocratic and smacks of totalitarianism.
On your stickers you asked "Where's the Welsh?". The almost uniform response was "Up your a*se, you pathetic vicious sanctimonious little vandals, piss off back to the tourist board and your experimental arts centre and stop billingualising the bin lorry's voice."
In the Riverside/Canton Welshist bubble you might not see this but everybody hates you. Nobody sees the point of Welsh in Cardiff because it HAS NO POINT, costs taxpayers' money and produces a tranche of pointless jobs in government which we would be no worse off without.
Wales is an English speaking country with a smattering of other languages in it. Get over it. -
At 8:52 pm,
Dylan said...
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Accusing Cymdeithas yr Iaith of violence is a disgusting and vicious lie. Never, not once in the entire history of the movement, has a single member participated in a violent act. Its very slogan is "non-violent direct action" for crying out loud. Violence is expressly forbidden. So you've just forfeited your right to be taken seriously on this matter really.
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At 8:56 pm,
Dylan said...
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"Welsh, even in these areas is a secondary language."
wow, another one without a clue. That's almost impressive. Fact remains that there are far far more first language Welsh-speakers in towns like Caernarfon than there are first-langugae English speakers. The only English you'll hear in town will come from tourists.
Secondary language indeed. Honestly. -
At 8:59 pm,
Der said...
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"English has not become the majority language of Great Britain through the noise of extremist protest and by using the law's hammer"
Havn't you heard of the Law which Henry viii passed regarding Welsh. It was basically an English language act in Wales. It has lasted more or less 500 years. -
At 8:59 pm,
Dylan said...
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I implore people to actually read CyI's language act proposal as well, because it plainly does not say what many people seem to assume it does. Chepstow's kebab shops have absolutely nothing to worry about.
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At 9:00 pm,
said...
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I never said they were violent, I said they were vicious. You've deliberately misunderstood me, you're a probably quite smart person pretending to be an idiot. And by writing me off you are writing off the opinion of probably half the people in Wales. Welsh language development is contrary to the interests, wishes or needs of most of the people of Wales. I'm sorry if this doesn't chime with the unbelievably blind consensus that has built up down the Bay which says that everybody loves Welsh. It isn't true. Welsh is seen as a nuisance by the majority.
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At 9:04 pm,
Dylan said...
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You said they "use violence". Which is as clear a falsehood as can be put in print.
Your idea of democracy seems to essentially boil down to the tyranny of the majority.
New language act or not, surely you can see how Thomas Cook's policy is deplorable and obviously unsuitable to an area like Bangor? -
At 9:14 pm,
Cymro said...
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Newwelshright, you think Welsh is a secondary language in Caernarfon? With 70%speaking it, and most of us having it as a first lannguage- the language we feel comfortable expressing ourselves in? What's secondary?
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At 9:18 pm,
said...
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NewWelshRight said:
"everybody hates you"
Now at last we're getting somewhere.
I shall assume that you include yourself in "everybody".
Just think about what you wrote. Don't send in another knee-jerk response. Think.
Then ask yourself this question: "Would I go up to an individual and say this to him or her, because that person is Welsh-speaking?"
If the answer is "No", then ask yourself why not, and see where that leads you.
If the answer is "Yes", then I'm afraid that your attitude is one with which it is difficult to deal, and impossible to answer, other than by ignoring you, replying in kind or, as so many Welsh-speakers have done over the years, turning the other cheek. -
At 9:49 pm,
Ian James Johnson said...
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Let's face it, the Welsh language is a crucial fault line of Welsh politics, and it's why we can't be divvied up on a nice 'left/right' axis like politics in England.
What gets me about language debates, though, is the inexplicable failure of monoglot English speakers to understand what's at stake for the 1 in 4 that speak Welsh.
The arguments against are so petty that Welsh speakers usually throw their hands up in horror - related almost exclusively to the cost or inconvenience of printing things twice or their being turned down for a job because of a lack of language skills (here's a hint - learn!).
As a monoglot speaker who gets to use their native tongue at all times, almost always without question, it is nigh on impossible to understand the feelings of frustration at not being able to use your language of choice at will.
English-only speakers in Wales consistenly ignore the fact that 99% of the time they are accommodated by Welsh speakers who turn to English rather than speak in Welsh because they know they will not be understood (um, this debate being a classic example). This is then misattributed to people 'not' speaking Welsh.
I don't want to have to be bolshy and start demanding my rights or demanding that a company produces someone who serves me, I just want to be able to carry out my business in the language of my choice.
A Welsh Language Act which puts the onus on business to provide a Welsh language service rather than on me to demand it is one which gives me dignity as a minority language speaker, rather than marking me out as an awkward customer.
Similarly, can I suggest to the Welsh language lobby in general that having won the intellectual argument and general political agreement for a Welsh Language Act that they do a bit of empathy work to bring in the remainder of the population - the ones that haven't already bought into a bilingual Wales and send their children to Welsh medium education. They need to understand why this is necessary - not just have it thrust upon them. -
At 10:06 pm,
said...
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ian said 'Let's face it, the Welsh language is a crucial fault line of Welsh politics,
One i would say conveniently exploited by the Labour Party to help it keep its grubby hands on power -
At 10:12 pm,
gwe said...
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New Welsh Right : I could take you to task on any number of your ill-judged comments, but I shall chose one:
"In the Riverside/Canton Welshist bubble you might not see this but everybody hates you. Nobody sees the point of Welsh in Cardiff because it HAS NO POINT, costs taxpayers' money and produces a tranche of pointless jobs in government which we would be no worse off without."
Cardiffians can't stand the Welsh language. Sure. That's why there used to be only one Welsh-medium primary school in Cardiff and now there are 12 - all over Cardiff. Never mind the Pontcanna crowd, I don't think they'd be too happy with your comments in working-class areas like Pentrebane, Grangetown and Llanrumney either. And before you start talking about a Welsh-speaking invasion, the vast majority of parents are English-speakers.
As to your other comments, they are deeply offensive and parochial in the extreme.
Harbouring such an apparent loathing of your fellow citizens simply because they speak another language is no way to embark on the great adventure of life, young man. However, I shall be charitable and put them down to the exubarence of youth. May I suggest you take advantage of the summer holidays and do some travelling around your own country? Wales does not begin and end in Cardiff. It is a valuable lesson to learn. -
At 10:47 pm,
said...
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Why am I not surprised?
Once again anyone who speaks against the use of the Welsh language is branded a pariah.
The Thomas Cook saga typifies this.
Thomas Cook have quite clearly stated that they require THEIR BUSINESS to conducted in the English language.
They have further stated that they have no wish to prevent Welsh speakers from speaking Welsh in personal conversation.
The insistence by Cymdeithas et al that Welsh be used by Cooks in their business and all the hoo-hah about a new Welsh Language Act is just another clear indication that the language cannot stand on its own two feet.
Compulsion, legislation, force or intimidation are all that is left to preserve this ancient language.
Persuasion has been tried at much public expense and has clearly failed.
You can offer the monoglot the oppportunity to learn Welsh but you can't make them learn if they don't want to.
The verbal attack on Thos. Cooks by Cymdeithas and their mates is a very poor strategy.
Presumably they wish to limit Cook's ability to promote from within THEIR company by imposing the prerequisite of ALL applicants having to speak Welsh.
This strategy has been tried many times in Public Appointments and has resulted in a very limited range of applicants.
The ability to speak Welsh severely limits our choice and does not necessarily produce the best applicants.
English is the Universal language of the UK and if a few people wish to speak another language,even Welsh, pray do so but please don't try to force, compel, legislate against me or in any way try to intimidate me into accepting that this ancient language has anything to do with my life or the majority of Welsh lives.
I thank you.
Prepared to be a Pariah.
Your pal.
johnny. -
At 10:55 pm,
said...
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Call yourself "New Welsh Right"? Your arguments are just Old Labour Left. Remember Neil Kinnock? He must be your hero!
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At 11:14 pm,
Dylan said...
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Johnny, TC are insisting that everyone, including Welsh-speakers, speak English with each other when discussing business. But if you think that's it's just that simple to separate "business" and "personal" conversations then you don't understand the Welsh-speaker's perspective nor the nature of conversation in the workplace generally. It's an utterly arbitrary and impractical distinction, never mind the ethics of the thing. If you think it's natural a pair of Welsh-speakers are going to use English when asking about a particular brochure or something then carry on in Welsh when discussing after work arrangements or whatever, then you're utterly out of touch.
Besides which, I simply can't speak English with most of my friends; it just feels unnatural and forced. I'd probably sooner kiss them than try to converse with them in English! That's not us being deliberately awkward and somehow anti-English. It's simply the reality of having a first language that's different from English. It's genuinely difficult for people like you to understand, and I appreciate that. -
At 11:32 pm,
gwe said...
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Dear Johnny,
I think there are two, possibly more, conversations going on here. One is regarding a Welsh Language Act in the wider context, and one is about the language policy enforced by Thomas Cook.
My main concern is with the latter. You write:
"Thomas Cook have quite clearly stated that they require THEIR BUSINESS to conducted in the English language."
Presumably, you think this is reasonable. Is it reasonable that two Welsh-speakers sit side by side and have to speak English together because it's 'company policy', unless they're talking about what they did at the weekend? Or what they're going to have for lunch? Now, if a Welsh-speaking customer comes in, they may serve him in Welsh, but have to switch back to English when they speak to each other.
Are you seriously suggesting that this makes sense?
This is not about making everyone who works for Thomas Cook speak Welsh. This isn't even about Welsh-language provision for customers. It's about allowing people to speak to each other in their native language at work.
Is that really too much to ask? -
At 11:44 pm,
said...
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In response to the Thomas Cook scandal and whichever side of the linguistic divide you sit - the most significant fact is this. While Plaid, I think, favours more legal rights for Welsh speakers, the Tories only go as far as voluntary action. Blamer's link to the Tory statement shows this conclusively.
So the coalition promise on this is a lot of spin. But, then, it was authored by the Tories spin doctor.
How do Plaid pro-coalitionists get out of that one? -
At 11:59 pm,
said...
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Iolo said:
"So the coalition promise on this is a lot of spin. But, then, it was authored by the Tories spin doctor. "
That is why we need to ask the Tories some questions *now* and not let them get away with side tracking answers or talking rabbits! -
At 12:16 am,
said...
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English is the Universal language of the UK and if a few people wish to speak another language,even Welsh, pray do so but please don't try to force, compel, legislate against me or in any way try to intimidate me into accepting that this ancient language has anything to do with my life or the majority of Welsh lives.
Do you materbate when you write stuff like this? just asking ;) -
At 2:35 am,
said...
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Dylan said...
"Johnny, TC are insisting that everyone, including Welsh-speakers, speak English with each other when discussing business."
johnny says....
That's right Dylan, THEIR BUSINESS.
By following Cook's policy kindly visualise the following :-
Scene: Thos. Cook Bangor branch.
TC being an international company have Managers and Executives from all over.
Enter Executives from England (monoglot). They have visited the branch to see if THEIR business is being conducted in the manner in which they would expect. They are unable to understand Welsh and therefore are unable to assess THEIR business without translation and we all know what happens in translation.
This is plainly a ridiculous situation and is unsustainable.
TC have freely stated that personal conversations may be spoken in Welsh if so desired.
This naturally begs the question.
What are the staff doing having personal conversations at their workstations? They're there to work.
Quite frankly if I were their manager I would certainly find them something to do apart from idle chit-chat. He who pays the piper etc.
gwe said....
"Thomas Cook have quite clearly stated that they require THEIR BUSINESS to conducted in the English language."
"Presumably, you think this is reasonable."
johnny says....
Your darned right I do. It's THEIR business for goodness sake.
Where does this protest originate from? Is it from the customers of Thos. Cook's? or is it from a couple of disgruntled employees who have gone crying to Cymdeithas about their 'rights'?
I am pretty sure that TC's customers go there for the low prices and good service as opposed to any linguistic needs.
If the customer does not wish to arrange their holiday in English then they have the choice of going elsewhere and probably paying 30% more for the 'privilege' of doing their booking in Welsh. They can vote with their feet.
I do not expect to see a mass closure of TC shops in Wales any time soon.
Incidentally, I have yet to meet a Welsh speaker who insisted on talking business in Welsh. Further, in my many dealings throughout Wales I have never met a Welsh speaker who failed to understand me when spoken to in English. We always did good business.
BTW. The customer is always right.
It is precisely this type of complaint and protest by Cymdeithas that alienates the majority monoglot population of Wales. It hardly encourages new business to locate to Wales as they would have to factor in the added cost of these rather silly proposals regarding the availability of Welsh in THEIR business.
This would clearly remove a significant amount of their competitive edge.
It should be noted that there has been absolutely no insistence from the business community regarding a need for the use of Welsh.
It would appear that most of the protest comes from those paid by the Public Purse who have absolutely no concept of the word COMPETITIVENESS.
The proposed compulsion to use Welsh in business is no more than a further TAX on an already overtaxed sector of society.
I seem to remember Ieuan harping on about "tax VARYING powers" for the Assembly.
Now we all know what that means don't we?
ordovicius said....
"Do you materbate when you write stuff like this? just asking ;)".
johnny says....with his trousers firmly hitched up.
I'm not quite sure what you mean ordo.
Materbate? What is this? I don't understand..............
......Oh, I see. It's a crude attempt at a nasty insult from a nasty nationalist. Tsk, tsk.
Ordo, you disappoint me. You should have used your 'Johnny Foreigner Wenglish Dictionary'
I'm sure the word you were looking for was :
'Wankio' verb - to masturbate.
In fact the noun 'Wankiwr' seems to be an appropriate description for you old chum.
Your parrying pal.
johnny. -
At 2:38 am,
Geraint said...
-
I would call the destruction of propety violence myself, and members of the language society have been arrested for that. I didn't mean to imply violence against indivisuals. I was struggling to find the right wording, I was meant to say criminal damage, or violence against propety. But somehow managed to post between the two, as I sometimes do when I am in a rush.
The langauge society has commited criminal damage, however they, to my knowledge, has not attacked anyone. However violence is not the anwser, be it against people or their propety. Again I apologise it was a genuine idiotic mistake by me, not reading what I put.
And I personally do not want to see a New Language Act that will be causing people to be laid off, just because they need to cut costs even more so, or even worse jobs advertising that people have to be Welsh speakers, because that is discrimination. -
At 2:42 am,
Geraint said...
-
And before anyone accuses me of back tracking, if you re-read the part which hwas it in, it doesn't make sense.
"More over the Welsh Language Society uses violence and commit criminal to try and get it's own way...."
As I said I was meant to put violence against propety, and/or commit criminal damage. I do apologise again for my lack of attention to what I posted and didn't mean to cause distress. It was just sheer stupidity to not re-read what I put. -
At 3:17 am,
said...
-
......Oh, I see. It's a crude attempt at a nasty insult from a nasty nationalist. Tsk, tsk.
Ordo, you disappoint me. You should have used your 'Johnny Foreigner Wenglish Dictionary'
I'm sure the word you were looking for was :
'Wankio' verb - to masturbate.
In fact the noun 'Wankiwr' seems to be an appropriate description for you old chum.
Your parrying pal.
johnny.
I'm touched that you're so easily affected by my comment. Ah to be young! -
At 4:22 am,
said...
-
Not affected ordo, just a little disappointed that a Roman of your rank should make such a glaring error, particularly to a foreigner.
Your picky pal.
johnny. -
At 5:25 am,
said...
-
Not affected ordo, just a little disappointed that a Roman of your rank should make such a glaring error, particularly to a foreigner.
Ah! If at first you don't succeed, talk gibberish? Continue, do... -
At 7:16 am,
said...
-
Most people in Wales couldn't give a monkey's toss about the Thomas Cook affair. To those of us who live in the South events in Bangor,North Wales are of much interest as events in Bangor,Maine.Of course as anyone who has read anything by Eric Hobsbawm will know ,we've been here before. In the pre 1914 Austro-Hungarian Empire there were often major debates about the language of the local station master. The linquistic winner of this debate ,of course, got the job. There are already too many people working in the public sector and the media because of their ablity to speak Welsh rather than any other qualities. A new Welsh Language Act would just add to the difficulties Wales already has in competing in a global market. Just look at Ireland where despite 80 years of state subsidy for the Irish language,most kids hate the subject and don't see it as having any relevance to the modern world.
-
At 7:44 am,
said...
-
Most people in Wales couldn't give a monkey's toss about the Thomas Cook affair. To those of us who live in the South events in Bangor,North Wales are of much interest as events in Bangor,Maine
Radio Wales disagree, having received record call ins by English speaking South Walians disgusted by Thomas Cook. Even English people phoning in on Five Live were outraged. You're clearly talking out of your arse hole. -
At 9:00 am,
Clear Red Water said...
-
"Radio Wales disagree"- many who actually listen to other stations dont care though. Again stuck in the bubble.
"It is very surprising to see 'clear red water' - a so called Socialist (b******s!) - putting the rights of big business before the people of Wales. This just goes to show how far to the right New Labour have lurched! Even the Tories seem to care more about Welsh people and communities than Labour these days"
Well if we want to talk about right and left, how about the right-wing fascists who formed Plaid and continue to exist within it.
Being socialist (although i am more of a social democrat strictly) has nothing to do with highlighting that a Welsh Language Act wont help anyone. I am not against rights for welsh speakers, i am against the ACT as an effective vehicle to change things. Is it really that hard to understand?
I should not have to be apologetic because i grew up in English speaking Wales (i am learning welsh though rapidly) and have reservations on a new welsh language act.
The tories essentially want an act that means nothing outside of agreeing on a Rainbow. Like i keep saying, unless you have compulsion it is simply maintaining the status quo.
It is not about defending Thomas Cook at all, it is first that such a small issue (one which all the Gwynedd ultras have misread once again) is being used to force the debate. Thomas Cook clarified it again- THEY ASK PEOPLE TO CONDUCT WORK MEETINGS IN ENGLISH. Staff can speak welsh, there is no saesneg gestapo if they hwyl on their way out of work.
My worry with this nationalist driven debate is that the welsh language is in danger of falling into the 'political correctness' debate. You know when there is outrage because we cant call christmas by that name because it might offend people of other faiths.
Whats right is what works with regards the language, a new welsh language act is merely a tool for a putsch down the assembly. -
At 9:19 am,
gwe said...
-
Johnny,
I am disapponited. You have totally evaded my question.
You seem to cherry pick bits from people's comments and ignore the point. You remind me of a deaf old uncle, who people have to shout at in order to make themselves undesratnd, only for said old uncle to go off on a complete tangent...
This isn't about English speaking management flying in and the locals speaking Welsh to them. Nothing of the sort.
Please read the following very slowly so that you understand what I'm saying...
Two people are at work. They speak Welsh TOGETHER about a work-related topic. There is no English speaker in the equation. A third Welsh speaker arrives. They continue in Welsh. An English speaker arrives and joins in. Obviously, they continue the discussion in English. This is how business works all over Wales, every day. It happens in banks, it happens in shops, it happens in offices, it happens in garages, it happens in hospitals... I think you get my drift.
Nothing wrong with that, right?
Ok, this is the Thomas Cook scenario.
Two people are at work. They want to speak Welsh TOGETHER about a work-related topic, but company policy does not allow this. There is no English speaker in the equation, but that is irrelevant. A third Welsh speaker arrives. They speak Welsh together normally and they would inconvenience no-one if they spoke Welsh TOGETHER, but they are not allowed.
A coustomer comes in. He speaks to them in Welsh. They ARE allowed to converse with him in Welsh, but not to EACH OTHER, as company policy dictates that they speak English on 'work related matters'.
This is what Thomas Cook's policy boils down to. It is totally idiotic. It is totally unsustainable. And it is totally WRONG. -
At 9:47 am,
said...
-
Forget about Thomas Cook. Use Expedia and the budget airline websites and cut out the middle man. Anyone who goes into a travel agent to be ripped off must be mad.
-
At 10:21 am,
said...
-
This comment has been removed by the author.
-
At 10:41 am,
said...
-
Radio Wales disagree"- many who actually listen to other stations dont care though. Again stuck in the bubble.
The other radio stations were covering it too. Take your head out of the sand, lad.
"It is very surprising to see 'clear red water' - a so called Socialist (b******s!) - putting the rights of big business before the people of Wales. This just goes to show how far to the right New Labour have lurched! Even the Tories seem to care more about Welsh people and communities than Labour these days"
Well if we want to talk about right and left, how about the right-wing fascists who formed Plaid and continue to exist within it.
Don't be a twat. If you can't make an argument without resorting to comparisons with fascism, it's because you have no argument at all. And don't bore me any your student dribble about Saunders Lewis.
Being socialist (although i am more of a social democrat strictly) has nothing to do with highlighting that a Welsh Language Act wont help anyone. I am not against rights for welsh speakers, i am against the ACT as an effective vehicle to change things. Is it really that hard to understand?
"The ACT"? There is no fucking act. So how can you be against the contents of a law that has yet to be drawn up? Behave.
.
It is not about defending Thomas Cook at all, it is first that such a small issue (one which all the Gwynedd ultras have misread once again)
At last you reveal yourself for the truly pathetic creature that you are. Who brought up the story? Not your imaginary Gwynedd "Ultras", but the media. Rural Welsh speakers don't like to rock boats, which is why the Thomas Cook affair repeats itself constantly here, and which just goes to show how far up your arse is your head when it comes to Welsh speakers, you racist turd.
Thomas Cook clarified it again- THEY ASK PEOPLE TO CONDUCT WORK MEETINGS IN ENGLISH. Staff can speak welsh, there is no saesneg gestapo if they hwyl on their way out of work.
And now you make up facts as you see fit Mr Andrews.
My worry with this nationalist driven debate is that the welsh language is in danger of falling into the 'political correctness' debate.
"Its okay to discriminate against the 20% who speak Welsh because they don't vote for us anyway."
Whats right is what works with regards the language, a new welsh language act is merely a tool for a putsch down the assembly.
Youve had 8 years to do it. So now its suddenly an anti-Labour plot? Well duh! -
At 10:52 am,
said...
-
Ok so now we first of all have Sandeff swear and throw insults to make a point while criticising other arguments. Very grown up of him, havent you got a job to do?
I suppose it is ok for Labour supporters like CRW to be called 'socialist bastards' though, yet any mention of the fact that Plaid history being based on right-wing fascism is not allowed? Arent you a right wing nationalist?
Your point on Radio Wales highlights how you have your head in the sand. The media cover stories, they dont support the cause behind them. Your point was regarding record numbers of callers to Radio Wales, another way of looking at it is that that 99% of Wales wasnt listening in. Just because Radio Wales was flooded with goons such as yourself, doesnt mean it is an important issue.
Get a job. -
At 11:05 am,
said...
-
blah blah Get a job etc
(yawn) -
At 11:23 am,
Ian James Johnson said...
-
In terms of ideological positions, most of us on political blogs set out our stall years ago, so our contributions here are more often about justifying our opinions than actually persuading others of the validity of our arguments.
Having said that, would Sanddef care to look back through his last few comments on this thread and claim that he isn't showing up Welsh language activists as being the raving loonies that the anti-Welsh lobby want to stereotype.
As I wrote yesterday, the arguments in favour of a new Welsh Language Act (of some sort) have been won at Cardiff Bay. It's the rest of the non-Welsh speaking population that need to be convinced...and slagging people off isn't the way to do it. -
At 12:13 pm,
Clear Red Water said...
-
Ianjamesjohnson,
At last some reasoned debate that doesnt involve petulant insults. thank you. You are spot on with regards the people of wales needing to be convinced of the use of a welsh language act, it is simply not acceptable to bounce such a policy because there is a chance of a rainbow coalition. Labour must maintained a principled stance because the real nature of the rainbow coalition supposed 'consensus' is based on political expediency.
I await Sandeff's usual squirming out of any debate with playground insults. -
At 12:43 pm,
said...
-
Having worked in the private sector my whole career, I really believe forcing firms to provide Welsh language services will be a step too far.
I so agree any thing that is compulsory goes so against freedom of choice. If the language is to flourish, it won't be by compelling people to use it.
Thomas Cook are out of order - and need to have some basic principles of rights explained to them. The way to get business to support the language is to show the benefit to the bottom line. They are not in business to be supporters of a language. -
At 12:52 pm,
Ian James Johnson said...
-
As I hinted at yesterday, the problem is that English-only speakers can't recognise or understand many of the concerns of Welsh speakers, or their fixation with language issues.
The reason that so many Welsh speakers are in favour of a new Welsh Language Act is because, despite the many improvements in the use of Welsh in the public sector as a result of the 1993 Act, it doesn't fulfill all of our needs as citizens of Wales.
The crucial part of the argument that loses people is the central discourse.
For Welsh speakers, this is about human rights, the ability to carry out my life through the medium of Welsh in the town where I was born, in the community in which I was raised...or to carry it out in English if I want to, the fun of being bilingual. When I go to Morrisons, I go there to do my shopping, not to indulge or become involved in a political-linguistic debate.
However, non-Welsh speakers often perceive this as simply being 'awkward'. After all, I (and every other Welsh speaker in Barry)can speak English perfectly well. If they've thought about the argument for a while, then they might suggest (as I've seen recently in WM letters) that language use should be treated as a luxury that I can pay for, like organic food. If I want it, then I can pay a little bit extra for it.
It is argued by free marketeers that if there are enough Welsh speakers in an area then through weight of demand that the market will provide.
That's the attitude of the Welsh Language Act 1993, it's a neo-liberal suggestion that businesses will use Welsh as a means of wooing Welsh speakers.
A quick walk around Cardiff will show that many, many shops feature Welsh signs, prominently placed, but the actual service in Welsh is patchy, and it's that frustration, and the failure to follow through on the promise of a Welsh language service, that drives Welsh speakers towards calling for a new Act.
To be able to use your own language in your own country is a human right, not a niche market in a neo-liberal, capitalist society. -
At 1:27 pm,
said...
-
At last some reasoned debate that doesnt involve petulant insults. .
Sorry, I didn't realise you were having a reasoned debate.
I await Sandeff's usual squirming out of any debate with playground insults.
Debate? LOL
Having said that, would Sanddef care to look back through his last few comments on this thread and claim that he isn't showing up Welsh language activists as being the raving loonies that the anti-Welsh lobby want to stereotype.
The only person I can show up is myself, I am not a collective entity. You seem to be under the impression that I stepped into a reasoned debate. You are quite evidently mistaken. -
At 1:35 pm,
said...
-
"I so agree any thing that is compulsory goes so against freedom of choice. If the language is to flourish, it won't be by compelling people to use it."
It is compulsory for me to use English when dealing with my bank/mobile phone company/internet provider, it therefore goes against my freedom of choice. Under the law as it stands, I am compelled to use English. Why should thsi be so, in my own country?
The kind of Language Act advocated would give me the choice to use Welsh, while leaving non-Welsh speakers rights to use English totally unaffected. Where then is the problem?? -
At 3:22 pm,
said...
-
Ordovicius:
Calm down dear, it's only a blog.
Why is it that you can't seem to expound your point without resorting to foul language and crude insults.
Do you think that the rest of us are impressed.
We can all do 'nasty', but I choose not to on the basis that I am able to express myself without resorting to foul language. Presumably.
Kindly do me the courtesy of responding in like manner. I thank you.
Of course, if I'm wrong. let me know as I can 'bucket mouth' with the best if necessary.
Whilst I realise that my opinions and postings may cause you to become somewhat apoplectic at times please be assured that they are only MY opinions.
Your comment regarding Radio Wales and 5 Live has little credibility as we all know that when these questions of language arise the Cymdeithas trolls come out in force and 'hog' the 'phonelines.
I will resist the temptation to respond in stronger language just in case there are minors or even miners reading this. I do hope that you don't mind.
gwe said...
Johnny,
"I am disapponited. You have totally evaded my question."
johnny says....
I don't believe that I have gwe.
Your question asked if I thought that Thos. Cook's policy was reasonable. I think that it is on the simple basis that it is THEIR BUSINESS, and further, their geographical position or even their demographic position is their affair. If the customers do not like it then, tough. They can go elsewhere.
If Welsh speakers have such little confidence in the validity of their language why is there this constant insistence that we all use it.
This relatively simplistic language is fine for those that wish to use it, but here in the 'real' world we have no real use for it.
We object to being constantly harrassed by a small but vociferous minority howling about their 'Human Rights' as if the rest of us have none.
I have shelf full of dictionaries and the thinnest of these is the Welsh one. It just doesn't have the sophistication of English and has really missed the boat.
I daresay that there is someone in Cymdeithas busying themselves 'Welshifying' English words for all they're worth. Sorry boys, too little, too late.
Welsh is of no use to the Welsh people as a language of modern life as it has failed to keep up with the times and is looked upon by non-Welsh as a quaint language from a quaint Country.
This is not the language of a thrusting or forward looking country and should be allowed to retire with grace and let the rest of us get on with making Wales a modern part of the UK as opposed to some leafy tribal backwater populated by inward looking Nationalists.
Incidentally, a quick look at Cymdeithas' measures for a Welsh Language Act include a proposal that if a business is unwilling to provide service in Welsh, then the person who has been refused service in Welsh can then institute Civil proceedings against them for 'hurting their feelings'.
AAaaahh, diddums.
Their further proposal to appoint a 'Language Commissioner', presumably armed with a big stick with which to beat the non-compliant, leaves me in no doubt as to their true intentions which would be to compel monoglots to learn Welsh or suffer real deprivation in Wales. There is no carrot.....just stick.
Why am I not surprised?
This attempt at compulsion by Cymdeithas merely strengthens my resolve to oppose their policies of forced use of the Welsh Language.
Your non-Procrustean pal.
johnny. -
At 3:44 pm,
gwe said...
-
Johnny,
I have suspected this for a while, but your last post confirms this. You are a hoax. -
At 3:46 pm,
said...
-
Calm down dear, it's only a blog.
If I calmed down anymore I'd be catatonic.
Do you think that the rest of us are impressed.
The rest of who?
Why is it that you can't seem to expound your point without resorting to foul language and crude insults.
(yawn)
We can all do 'nasty', but I choose not to on the basis that I am able to express myself without resorting to foul language. Presumably.
Kindly do me the courtesy of responding in like manner. I thank you.
Did I insult you? I don't keep notes.
Your comment regarding Radio Wales and 5 Live has little credibility as we all know that when these questions of language arise the Cymdeithas trolls come out in force and 'hog' the 'phonelines
Yes, of course they do. They even tap people's phones, and they're always listening in to 5 Live for Welsh language issues.
I will resist the temptation to respond in stronger language just in case there are minors or even miners reading this. I do hope that you don't mind.
I don't mind being obsessed about, cheers ;)
Welsh is of no use to the Welsh people as a language of modern life as it has failed to keep up with the times and is looked upon by non-Welsh as a quaint language from a quaint Country.
It's not the same when you do it Johnny. It has to be taken seriously in order to offend.
;) -
At 4:22 pm,
said...
-
Clear Red Water said...
"i grew up in English speaking Wales (i am learning welsh though rapidly) "
Good for you -thumbs up-. Look out Ordo. -
At 4:27 pm,
said...
-
gwe said...
"Johnny,
I have suspected this for a while, but your last post confirms this. You are a hoax. "
Totally agree with you. Not worth bothering the time of day. -
At 5:02 pm,
said...
-
Ordo and Gwe:
No hoax here. More like a reality check for the Nationalistic cause.
Just my opinion. Whilst I appreciate that you may disagree with me, could it possibly be that you have never been challenged by such as I? Have I upset you? I hope not.
In my vast experience of debate I have always found that when opponents resort to personal insults and dismissive remarks then they really have run out of sensible rebuttal.
Your remarks cause me some amusement as I can just imagine a small enclave of swivel-eyed nationalistic goons in fits of apoplexy at my remarks. Whilst surrounded by their garlanded portraits of Saunders Lewis (sorry folks, couldn't resist it) they think up more insults to heap on poor old johnny foreigner for having the nerve to disagree with them
This of course is interspersed with interludes of watching Pobl y Cwm and Rasus and singing My hen laid a haddock.
Your puckish pal.
johnny. -
At 6:53 pm,
Cymro said...
-
Oh, get a life Johnny. I can't say that I support the use of what has been rather ripe language against you - that hardly helps us. But before you make comments that Welsh is useless or outdated, why don't you find out a bit about it.
Welsh isn't simplistic at all - it's hugely complex and is as different from Old Welsh as English is from Old English. Anything can be described in Welsh - and not just by Wenglifying words as you say - apart from the newest technological advances - which get names soon enough. And even if we do 'borrow' for the roots of other words, that is what all languages do - and English is a master of the art!
The act is no threat to you or to monoglot Wales. We are saying that if big businesses such as Thomas Cook set up here, they should respect our use of the language in all aspects of our lives. The act isn't there to prop up the Welsh language, it is intended to give it the same protection as English enjoys. -
At 8:43 pm,
said...
-
No hoax here. More like a reality check for the Nationalistic cause.
Blah blah blah etc
Yes of course Johnny. My immense ego is completely shattered etc
Good for you -thumbs up-. Look out Ordo.
For what? -
At 10:30 pm,
said...
-
Cymro said...
Oh, get a life Johnny. I can't say that I support the use of what has been rather ripe language against you - that hardly helps us. But before you make comments that Welsh is useless or outdated, why don't you find out a bit about it.
johnny says....
I have a life Cymro, I also have an opinion.
The fact that you and some others may not agree with me does not really give you (a generally polite person) any cause to tell me to get a life.
FYI I have family and friends who have a number of successful businesses in Wales and ALL agree that the imposition of services in Welsh by compulsion will reduce their competitiveness and will increase prices for the customer. It has been described as just another political stealth tax.
In fact two of these businesses have already made exploratory enquiries regarding re-location to a little nearer the Bridge. Just over the border in England to remain competitive.
You say that I should find out more about Welsh. Why?
I took Welsh for much of my schooldays and that has been more than sufficient for me.
I learned enough to know that Pen y Bryn is nowhere near the bottom of the Valley and that Maes y Felin is probably somewhere near a river and may have an old building that could have been a Mill. That's enough for me thanks.
Again, I must disagree with you. The Act DOES prop up the Welsh language IMHO. What other purpose does it have?
You claim that it protects the language. Who from? Me?
English needs no such protection as it is clearly the universally used language of the UK and stands on its own merit.
Welsh must live or die on its own merits. It clearly has survival problems as the only course of action considered by the nationalist cause is by the use of legislation, compulsion or force.
You have tried persuasion and it just hasn't worked. Face up to it. You have a battle on your hands. I have.
We monoglots have no real wish to learn a second language such as Welsh. We are too busy leading our lives and making a living.
I sincerely feel a certain sympathy for your cause and understand the frustrations that fuel your campaign but please understand, that from a monoglot's point of view, you have to recognise that businesses considering re-locating to Wales will be discouraged by the obvious added, and to them, unnecessary, expense involved in providing their services. This added expense will clearly be passed on to the customers.
You will obviously need to also recognise that this insistence on the use of Welsh severely limits the pool of talent available to us.
The ability to speak Welsh has absolutely no relevance on the performance of one's duties
Nevertheless, I thank you for your considered response and look forward to more relatively civilised discussion with you.
......and as for you ordo....
You've really lost the plot haven't you?
I have read many of your postings on this blog and others and have generally found them to be relatively reasonable but lately you seem to have run out of ideas apart from the use of foul abuse and disdain.
Oh well, there's always one, and you appear to be it.
Your patient pal.
johnny -
At 1:27 pm,
said...
-
......and as for you ordo....
You've really lost the plot haven't you?
Your plot isn't worth finding, let alone losing.
