Time to talk
Tuesday, June 05, 2007
It's 'don't turn up' Tuesday.
First of all, Plaid AMs Leanne Wood and Bethan Jenkins will give the Queen's official opening of the assembly a miss, then Rhodri Morgan will be the only party leader absent from a Week in Week Out special examining what the hell is going on at the top of Welsh government.
Fresh from gaining Wales' first super-ministry, Carwyn Jones will deputise. A sign of things to come, perhaps? Nevertheless, the first minister's absence does rather undermine the point of the programme.
We want answers, and only Rhodri Morgan truly knows what
What are the bottom line issues? And even then, can the government do anything to save its back?
The reality is, surely, that the opposition parties can keep upping the anti. If Labour put all their eggs in one basket, the rainbow partners can just crack them in their face. Labour may offer concessions over hospital reconfiguration, for example, but if they don't go as far as Ieuan Wyn Jones and his buddies demand, then they could have the rug pulled from beneath them at any time.
Personally, I can't see consensus politics going beyond agreeing that this afternoon's champagne is indeed a very good vintage.
Which brings me back to those dungaree-clad social workers, as some of you have so crassly described them in the comments to what was an otherwise quite interesting debate.
And that is surely the point. We had a debate.
Whether or not you agree with Bethan and Leanne, it is vital that we have the argument about the role of the monarchy from time to time. Unfortunately, there is almost no space for the type of views held by these two politicians in the mainstream media, despite the fact that they are shared by a sizable proportion of the population.
Do we elect our leaders or does the Queen appoint them? Are we subjects or citizens? Who decides whether or not we go to war? And is the Queen really the best person to open our assembly?
These are all questions of fundamental importance. They deserve to be discussed. Regrettably, opportunities to do so are all too rare.
Labels: abolition of monarchy, Bethan Jenkins, Leanne Wood, National Assembly for Wales, politics, Rainbow Coalition, Rhodri Morgan
posted by Blamerbell @ 12:43 am,
49 Comments:
-
At 12:55 am,
said...
-
Never mind the Swansea two, what about that new Olympic logo?
Yep, it's a swastika. -
At 1:03 am,
said...
-
I don't know but I would have thought the mainstram media was always banging on about republicanism.
Over at the BBC the days of simpering Jan Leeming and extended coverage of royal tours have long gone, nowadays the royals are treated more as a joke than anything else.
Lots of countries are constitutional monarchies but we all seem hung up on the class system and kow-towing and forelock tugging, surely it's not about that at all. Just do you have a powerless figurehead as your head of state or some deadbeat politico. If a Welsh republic stipulated that the president had to be an attractive middle aged woman - like the last two preisdents of the Irish Republic - then that would fit the bill as far as I'm concerned.
Why the hang-up about the Quenn appointing, if she didn't do what she was told she'd have her head chopped off - that's the system. -
At 1:06 am,
said...
-
I actually think the Olympic question is quite important, certainly more important than who opens the Senedd.
There will be no Welsh team represented at the Olympics, the Assembly should boycott the whole event. -
At 1:12 am,
Mike said...
-
I've been wondering.
Are the Swansea Two going to Charles and Camilla's dinner and harp concert? -
At 1:14 am,
said...
-
I agree blamer that we need our own media, a welsh press and not branches of UK (Australian owned) broadcasters and newspapers, to discuss real issues that are important to the welsh public.
much of the diatribe about Leanne Wodd and Bethan Jenkins was Labour point scoring against Plaid Cymru, that ain't debate - but i can't understand why do so many people fall for it time after time.
As for Rhodri doing week in week out - same old Labour we don't need to tell people what we are doing, just shut up and vote for us -
At 1:35 am,
said...
-
I've thought long and hard about the two AMs stance after the debate on the blog. I disagreed with their decision not to attend today. Yet I think I would do the same when I was their age. And I think my children would admire them.
Something happens to us with age. It may be experience but it looks like the political sharpness and fire goes out with time.
It's someting to consider. -
At 2:04 am,
said...
-
"Well Blamer, we ALMOST had a debate but unfortunately one of my postings was one of the few deleted. Pray tell us why.
I merely stated that "I blame the parents" with regard to their children's bad manners and discourtesy. This was meant generically and was in no way intended as a slight against you and your sister's parents.
Unfortunately, your sister has chosen to act in what I feel to be a discourteous manner and I chose to comment on it.
Do you really have a problem with this?
I can hardly call that thread a DEBATE when you delete my rather benign posting and yet permit a posting that describes the Queen's family as "inbred fuckwits".
Methinks thou dost protest too much.
Nevertheless, I must offer my thanks for what is turning out to be a great blog and like the best wine may take a little time to mature.
Your grateful but generic guest...
..and, of course, your pal.
johnny. -
At 2:33 am,
said...
-
Blamer!
Istn time for you and your friends to go to bed?
I at least am in a different time warp! oops Zone as a excuse!
Mike -
At 2:54 am,
Geraint said...
-
Anonymous said...
I actually think the Olympic question is quite important, certainly more important than who opens the Senedd.
There will be no Welsh team represented at the Olympics, the Assembly should boycott the whole event.
1:06 AM
-----------------------------------
Wales is represented, Great Britain, our athletes will be in the UK team, aswell as all the other nations in the UK having atheletes in Team Great Britain, just ashame about the flag and antheme.
-----------------------------------
welsh lass said...1:14 AM
-----------------------------------
Typical anon and pesudo anon comments from Plaid members, with ungrounded smear tatics and spin, it is pathetic, petty point scoring by Plaid Cymu, instead of real debate about the moncarchy, which is sad really.
-----------------------------------
As for my views, I think I made my republicanism clear in the other post. As I said their I feel the royal family are out of date, over-privillaged, undemocratic and are one of the things that help enforce the terrible class driven society we have in Britain (although their are worse insitutions that do that.) -
At 6:33 am,
said...
-
The problem with all the hot air about the republican 2 is that no one is that interested. If you look at the blogging world the comments on many of the sites are from the same political anoraks. Most voters are not that interested in the events down the Bay today. All that the past 4 weeks have shown is how limited the political talent is in Wales. The comments of Barry Morgan might make the front page of the Western Mail but it would be interesting to find out how many people in Wales actually know who he is. In a digital age you should also be asking how many viewers will even bother to watch tonight's BBC's analysis of the the farce of the past 4 weeks. The simple fact is that for much of the time the political class of Wales are merely talking to themselves hence the low recognition rating and low turn out in assembly elections. The media recognises this by the fact that programmes are often thrown together and then broadcast at a time when no one is watching.
-
At 8:39 am,
said...
-
Dafydd Ellis Thomas said on radio Wales today that in considering whether to support an 'anti labour' coalition government in proposing a referendum for a Parliament, Labour should take heed of the opinion polls at the time. Does he believe the right wing coalition should do the same before undertaking the 'coup etat'? I wonder why the BBC and Western Mail haven't undertaken such a poll already? Answers on a post card.
-
At 9:05 am,
said...
-
Leanne Woods is right not to attend the opening of the Wales Borough Council this afternoon as she is a proven republican. Liz Winsor turning up is not great shakes if you don’t believe in the British monarchy.
I am not sure about Bethan Jenkins she seems to be a bit of a flip flopper on a number of key issues which to be fair is probably more about being new to the job. We don’t know if she is a leftist with republican sympathies or just someone who knows how to get a headline.
The things about Liz Winsor is that The Daily Mail reading plaid voting Serbians that live north of Carmarthenshire love her. Why? Because she is white, old and rich. And her hubby Phil like’s killing things and dislikes foreigners and hunt saboteurs. Give her a bungalow outside Blaenau Ffestiniog, put her in a housecoat and she almost could be a target Plaid voter. Ok she’s not Welsh but she is not exactly English either. -
At 9:59 am,
said...
-
If we had a Rainbow Coalition then the Queen would not be there and I think that Plaid would try and resolve the relationship between Wales and the monarchy asap, so that there would be none. God help Charles in llandovery then
-
At 10:25 am,
said...
-
to Geraint Rennie
I have never been a member of Plaid Cymru and vote independent, and I am as entitled to my views as you are
I think that Leanne and Bethan are playing into Labour hands that's all - being seen to throw a hissy fit instead of making what they thing is a principled stance. -
At 11:12 am,
Blamerbell said...
-
"If we had a Rainbow Coalition then the Queen would not be there and I think that Plaid would try and resolve the relationship between Wales and the monarchy asap, so that there would be none. God help Charles in llandovery then"
I gather much of this pomp is down to Dafydd Elis Thomas. You don't get much mroe Plaid than that.
Just watching the footage on television, it seems to me like something I'd have been perfectly happy doing at Cambridge, but it seems to strike no chord at all with my experience of Welsh politics so far.
After all, this is a new institution, which can invent new traditions. -
At 11:21 am,
said...
-
The SNP believe in a reformed monarchy along the Norwegian model – a lot more low key and political alliance to the people rather than a crown. Because of this the SNP have captured the tartan skirt wearing brigade in places like Perth. Most SNiPs are republicans but they know they won’t get anywhere without the old dears that still love the queen and the regalia of Britain. I would venture that in little Serbia the majority of Plaid voters over the age of 40 are monarchists too. If Plaid are going to get to 25+ seats they are going to have to go into constructive dialogue with Tory voters.
-
At 11:55 am,
said...
-
That was about the most tedious ceremony I have ever witnessed. The TV coverage was also terrible but at least it enabled all of us to spot that Baron Elis-Thomas was sporting a massive erection during the opening of the assembly?
-
At 12:43 pm,
said...
-
Blamerbell said...
"Just watching the footage on television, it seems to me like something I'd have been perfectly happy doing at Cambridge, but it seems to strike no chord at all with my experience of Welsh politics so far."£
Well now that's very odd Blamers. I've lived in Wales for a long time and these Royal visits for special occasions are those that mark the calendar. Children get time off school to see the Queen, a day to remember. And they happen at least every few years together with friendly visits.
But perhaps not in Merthyr.
Unless someone can correct me. -
At 12:56 pm,
said...
-
anonymous said:
/I think that Plaid would try and resolve the relationship between Wales and the monarchy asap, .../
There is no problem between the Monarchy and Wales.
There will always be rebels, and plaid still has a group of them. Their so called politics has nothing to do with the betterment of society, it becomes a platform for their theories that have little to do with government, people and looking after the poor. They have these rebels in Labour as well. They are usually from comfortable backgrounds (Tony Benn), with a better than average education, with a head high in the clouds. It was this line of thinking that eventually lwed to New Labour. See how Cherie Blair despises the Queen.
Hands up if you have never met one.
It's up to the electorate to distinguish between these theorists (or media, or spin doctors) and proper politicians. -
At 1:08 pm,
said...
-
God save the Queen
Her facist regime
They made you a moron
Potential h-bomb
God save the Queen
She ain't no human being
There's no future
In England's dreaming
Don't be told what you want
Don't be told what you need
There's no future, no future
No future for you
God save the Queen
We mean it man
We love our Queen
God saves
God save the Queen
'Cos those tourists are money
And our figure head
Is not what she seems -
At 1:13 pm,
said...
-
Yawn ............ who cares about who opens what and who's there and who isn't - its flim flam.
Tradition is great , but we can make our own, we don't have to follow out dated ceremony.
How much did to day cost I wonder and what was eth added value .Did business in Cardiff benefit I doubt it. Did hordes travel in to see it I doubt it. It will be on TV for a few minutes nationally possibly , will Wales benefit , doubt it
So why does it take up so many inches on Blogs
If we could have a debate with out it being personalised and with out name calling, that would be excellent -
At 1:25 pm,
said...
-
Bard in Bed said...
*Yawn ............ flam.
Tradition is great , but we can make our own, we don't have to follow out dated ceremony.
How much did to day cost I wonder and what was ..*
Yes, and how much did last week's Eisteddfod cost Bard, and how much will the National Eisteddfod cost and who benefits from it? All outdated ceremonies? Yes? No?
Or will whatever new tradition we drum up cost even MORE? -
At 2:40 pm,
Blamerbell said...
-
I think the point here is that his is a new tradition.
There is nothing set in stone to say this is how it must be.
But for a new tradition, it looks and feels pretty old.
I wonder if something more inclusive could have been thought up to get Welsh people more excited about an institution it seems they'd much rather ignore. -
At 2:59 pm,
Marcusian said...
-
"I agree blamer that we need our own media, a welsh press and not branches of UK (Australian owned) broadcasters and newspapers, to discuss real issues that are important to the welsh public."
Quite frankly this isnt going to happen, 85% of people read a 'london' paper. The western mail is floundering, there is simply not a desire for a pure welsh based media that can translate into a media outlet that can survive in the cut throat world. Yes we bloggers and the like would love more welsh politics and media to view, the rest of wales wont give a damn because Jordan and Peter part 82 is on...
This lack of desire for Welsh media is shared by many lack of desire for an 'independent' wales. Even Plaid have woken up to that fact...Remember before all the nats choke on their twr nant, i said a full INDEPENDENT wales not a welsh parliament. -
At 3:29 pm,
said...
-
Well Blamer, should I still be surprised?
I have asked you a simple generic question regarding courtesy and good manners. No answer was the stern reply.
As you appear to wish to ignore it am I to assume that this discourtesy is a family trait? I do hope not.
Of course, I expect this assumption is quite wrong but from your lack of response so far I am somewhat concerned as to your ability to engage in sound and reasonable debate.
If I were to describe you and your family as a bunch of "inbred fuckwits", as you have permitted Her Majesty's family to be described, would that be more in keeping with the general tone of this blog?
Please say it isn't so.
Kindly answer my simple question and let's get on with the debate.
I have little doubt that this will be deleted. If you choose to delete that would clearly indicate to me that this blog is degenerating into nothing more than a Republican/Nationalist wankfest.
Please say it isn't so, it's been a good blog so far.
Your probationary pal.
johnny. -
At 4:17 pm,
said...
-
I don’t normally post but i have read Blamerbell since he started and am surprised at the level of personal abuse being thrown Blamers over the last few days because of actions and opinions that his sister holds.
Be wary those who criticize without Blamerbell we wouldn't have such a potent voice and welsh blogs wouldn't have such an impact in Cardiff bay or many of the other excellent welsh blogs we now have.
Just because we disagree don’t let your reactions feed into the hands of people who would rather we weren't here raising issues and debating. -
At 4:29 pm,
said...
-
phil the greek said:
"The things about Liz Winsor is that The Daily Mail reading plaid voting Serbians that live north of Carmarthenshire love her"
Serbians eh...I suppose that's meant as some kind of racist taunt.
Well anyone who knows anything about the Balkans will know that the Serbs and the Greeks are pals, so I'm guessing that the phil the greek tag should actually read phil the geek.
Anonymous said:
"I would venture that in little Serbia the majority of Plaid voters over the age of 40 are monarchists too."
Ah is there something of a pattern emerging here, Serbs = bad, Welsh = Serbs, ergo Welsh = bad.
Labour party spin, one poster with a bee in his bonnet...watch this space. -
At 5:08 pm,
said...
-
Quite like the fact that Leanne and Bethan aren't attending the Queen's visit, but pity they messed it up with some awful lefty oportunism.
Rather than ghoing to see the homeless (what, are there less homeless in republican France or Germany or USA?) they should have made a simple point about Welsh nationality. They should have gone to Cilmeri say. As it is they've missed the chance to put Welsh nationality on the agenda and pandered to the Brit Left. -
At 7:43 pm,
Martin Evans said...
-
'There is no problem between the Monarchy and Wales. '
Maybe. I'm biased on this but I think Wales has lost some democratic clarity with the new dispensation.
For all its shortcomings of limited powers etc, the first Government of Wales Act had a democratic logic. In a democracy the ultimate power rests with the people. The people delegated power for four years at a time to the 60 members they elected. That was what gave the Assembly its legitimacy.
The members delegated powers to the First Minister and he in turn delegated them down the line to ministers and officials. But at any time the elected members could take the powers back.
Now instead we have the government getting its legitimacy in some curious way via the Queen. We're back to the sort of obscure constitution that causes students' eyes to glaze over.
How do we teach Welsh children what our constitution is about, and how it relates to this concept of democracy? What have we gained by the change, other than aligning us with a Westminster model that mystifies its own citizens? -
At 7:52 pm,
Blamerbell said...
-
Some excellent points there, Martin.
Remember that the assembly previously had secondary legislation passed on its behalf by the Queen's parliament, so there was still a dependence on the her deferred powers.
But symbolically, it does seem somewhat perverse to take what appears to be a regressive democratic step and have the first minister appointed by the monarch rather than by elected representatives.
I am completely baffled as to why the assembly has become such a convoluted and complicated institution - something which is exacerbated by the latest Government of Wales Act.
Here was an opportunity to create a legislature as transparent as the building in which it sits. But in Westminster's reluctance to let go and in our own depseration to ape Westminster, we've been left with something of a constitutional mess. -
At 7:53 pm,
Blamerbell said...
-
Oh, and thanks for those sentiments, concerned blog reader.
I've got a big enough chin to take it on:) -
At 8:02 pm,
said...
-
This lack of desire for Welsh media is shared by many lack of desire for an 'independent' wales. Even Plaid have woken up to that fact...Remember before all the nats choke on their twr nant, i said a full INDEPENDENT wales not a welsh parliament.
I bet that if one went back a few years.....if you were old enough.....you would have substituted 'an independent Wales' with 'a devolved Wales'. No vision. No dream. With regards to Jordan et al....it should suite Labour well if people remain as such. -
At 8:23 pm,
said...
-
der said...
"This lack of desire for Welsh media is shared by many lack of desire for an 'independent' wales. Even Plaid have woken up to that fact...Remember before all the nats choke on their twr nant, i said a full INDEPENDENT wales not a welsh parliament."
Back in the Sixties when I first began to waste the best part of my life pursuing the dream of an independent Wales, independence actually meant something.
What does independence mean today, would Wales be truly independent within the European union?
It seems to me that real Welsh independence is off the agenda until such time as the European union disintegrates, if and when that ever happens. -
At 8:43 pm,
said...
-
I am not sure about Bethan Jenkins she seems to be a bit of a flip flopper on a number of key issues which to be fair is probably more about being new to the job. We don’t know if she is a leftist with republican sympathies or just someone who knows how to get a headline.
If you know her at all you will know that she has strong views. She is not a flip flopper in any way. -
At 8:53 pm,
Cymro said...
-
Let's leave this issue now with no more digusting personal attacks on Bethan and Leanne. They have their republican principles - which I share - so I am glad that someone stood up on this issue.
I am not convinced by the decision to boycott, simply because they lef themselves open to the kind of narrow-minded attacks that have been rife in the press and blogosphere.
But it's done with now. I find it hard to see why they should be harassed for this decision. I'm looking at you Johnny - surely you aren't taking a new leaf on rudeness? -
At 9:11 pm,
said...
-
Cymro said...
"I am not convinced by the decision to boycott, simply because they lef themselves open to the kind of narrow-minded attacks that have been rife in the press and blogosphere. "
Whatever our opinion on this, I think we must see that they were very courageous. They will certainly go down in welsh history for what they did today. There are many who feel the same way as them but did not have the courage to do as their conscience called. Some are in parties other than Plaid.
So we need to respect their stance today and appreciate they really are representing a percentage of the electorate. -
At 9:17 pm,
said...
-
Leanne wood and Bethan Jenkins have taken some serious flack for taking what they believe is a stand on principle not to attend today’s opening.
Our First Minister Rhodri Morgan is not taking part in a live TV debate with the other party leaders, he’s sending Carwyn Jones instead this is as insulting to Wales and no one will challenge Rhodri about it.
- This is Hypocrisy of the highest order. -
At 9:29 pm,
said...
-
Blamer, I think you could be right about an early coup de bay. Nick is gagging for it so much. What's the odds on a new FM by Friday the 13th (July)?
-
At 9:55 pm,
said...
-
anon said
"Our First Minister Rhodri Morgan is not taking part in a live TV debate with the other party leaders, he’s sending Carwyn Jones instead this is as insulting to Wales and no one will challenge Rhodri about it.
- This is Hypocrisy of the highest order."
No it's not, it's just a TV debate, nothing at all to do with the constitutional process. Telly people are so self-important. -
At 9:57 pm,
said...
-
Another anon said...
"I think we must see that they were very courageous."
Sorry, this is a mis-use of the word courageous. How exactly were they coutrageous....do you think they still send people to the tower? -
At 10:21 pm,
Cymro said...
-
I agree that Bethan's stance was admirable- although people seem to be saying that acting on republican principles is boycott or bust. I think it's simplistic to say that - other approaches include attending the ceremony and telling the Queen why you are republican.
That doesn't make Bethan's action less admirable, but people should stop assigning political beliefs on the basis of attendance at the ceremony. Many attending today are no fans of the monarchy - and obviously hope to engage in reforming measures.
A boycott is one of many legitimate approaches. -
At 11:07 pm,
said...
-
Yes, and how much did last week's Eisteddfod cost Bard, and how much will the National Eisteddfod cost and who benefits from it? All outdated ceremonies? Yes? No?
Or will whatever new tradition we drum up cost even MORE?
I have no idea how much the eisteddfods cost but there are a few more people involved than the ceremony today and people do pay to go there and the cost benefits, social and economic impacts are measurable.
The Eisteddfods are not a ceremony although they do contain ceremonial
If you come up with some idea I am sure I can cost them for you
Not all that is past is worth keeping; we need the new to infuse life and verve. -
At 11:18 pm,
Geraint said...
-
The sad fact is everyone is trying to do party political point scoring, from BOTH sides. Even in this issue which is not party political. The sad thing is, that in Wales all four parties had simular manifestos, and all this petty point socring is not as important, nor as needed as it is use to be.
-
At 12:08 am,
said...
-
Why am I never surprised with this blog?
It seems that not only is it a haven for Republican and Nationalist views but appears to have embraced Fascism as well.
Blamer:
I've asked you a simple and civil question regarding courtesy. Kindly answer the question or have you taken to hiding behind that prodigious chin of yours?
No dissent permitted here eh!
...and as for you Cymro:
Just who the Hell do you think you are?
cymro said....
"I'm looking at you Johnny - surely you aren't taking a new leaf on rudeness?"
You accuse me of rudeness?
I merely pointed out that the non-attendnce of these two women was, IMHO, an act of rudeness, discourtesy and furthermore, ignorance.
Their behaviour was an affront to Her Majesty and to the majority of their electors who do not share their Republican views.
Rudeness indeed?
Of course you and your sulky pal Blamer are quite happy to accept the description of Her Majesty's family as "inbred fuckwits".
I suppose that if I were to suggest that your rabid nationalism was as a result of there being too many cousins in your gene pool you too would be somewhat miffed but, of course, on your cosy little Nationalist wankfest anything goes eh! (Unless of course you disagree with us).
You and the nonnys have sought to almost sanctify these two women by describing their actions as having attracted:-
"disgusting personal attacks"
"narrow minded attacks"
"some serious flack(sic)"
Phew, it almost takes me back to WW11.
Their non-attendance has also been described as:-
"admirable"
"a principled stand"
"courageous"
It doesn't take much to please you does it?
There again, rudeness always was the Nationalist way, wasn't it?
I have little doubt that this post will earn another deletion but still hang on to the vain hope that the Blogmeister Blamer may yet answer my simple and politely posed question.
Your patient pal.
johnny -
At 12:35 am,
said...
-
anonymous said:
"Sorry, this is a mis-use of the word courageous. How exactly were they coutrageous....do you think they still send people to the tower? "
Whatever your views would you like to be one of those AMs these last few days? -
At 12:41 am,
said...
-
I've got to say it, is Johnny Foreigner really that miserable opinionated git who won Castaway? lol
-
At 12:44 am,
Blamerbell said...
-
Johnny, purely because I can't resist the urge to be contrary, I didn't delete your posts.
And there are so many of them that I have no idea what the question is you keep banging on about.
I suggest you give it up and instead make your parsimonious presence known on a newer thread. -
At 12:55 am,
said...
-
anon said;
"Whatever your views would you like to be one of those AMs these last few days?"
I'm sure that no politician is going to be very upset by a little bit of low key criticism. -
At 1:58 am,
said...
-
A Johnny Foreigner Nonny said...
I've got to say it, is Johnny Foreigner really that miserable opinionated git who won Castaway? lol
johnny says...
Almost. I'm not particularly miserable but I certainly am an opinionated git. It has been said that I could start an argument in a 'Phone Box.
But hey! it's only a DEBATE.
Blamer:
Thanks for resisting your urges and for your continued hospitality.
FYI the question was simply this:-
Would you agree that discourtesy and bad manners are a reflection on the parents?
A simple Yes or No will suffice.
BTW, parsimonious? Moi?
Check your Oxford Concise Dictionary.
That's the last thing that anyone who knows me would call me. I am renowned as being the one who is always willing to help others.
I have already taken your advice to move to a new thread (or did you mean Blog?) and have posted a couple of pertinent questions for our imminent Dyfarnydd.
Your preceptorial pal.
johnny.
